HUMAN WEAKNESSES!

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I wrote this in the ( VAIN?) hope it would provoke a serious discussion!

well coming from a fag that drinks his own piss, I guess aids is serious enough!!

I guess I knew you above all others would come back with a load of bollocks cuz thats where you brain is, in your bollocks.
Now if you have something to ADD to a DEBATE, go ahead, otherwise go back to shagging your mouse since thats about all you could fit your cock into.

Gee, to tell u the truth, don't think this idea of choice is confined to humanity mate. Although other species rely far more on instinct, they always have a choice, and everything living is prone to error (except for plants maybe wtf).

As well, i mean, i dunno who said it, but you always have to keep making decisions, even if they are incorrect. Leading on to the idea of making mistakes is the best way for improvement blah blah blah

So anyway, also, everything has negative side-effects, even the most positively-geared decisive measures will wind up with at least one malevolent side-effect, but you can't let that stop you from making these decisions, choices or watever, otherwise ur spend ur entire life procrastina.......ting

no offence but if this really is how u feel, then i think u need to learn to loosen up lol, the list of human errors is endless, but fook me if i'm (or anyone of significance) gonna make a fuss over it

But yes, i guess it is a weakness on re-examination. But, i mean, it always will be, even if we got a computer to make every choice for us, then there's still the likelihood of a mistake, even if we evolve into superfreaks, ur never gonna get a perfect decision

There, i dunno if that makes sense or if it even qualifies as serious discussion, but at least i tried, and quite frankly i dont care so much anymore, cos damn they don't make 'em like this anymore. Fook it, i so goddamn tired.

WHAT??

sounds like the new chris may actually be spam or one of his crotch sniffing peons?

I have given up tryimg to circumguess who is who any more. Some give themselves away because they use the same paterns. No brainpower to make even suttle changes.

If you apply the Christian model to freedom of choice, we were "blessed" with this ability because our deity wanted us to be more than clones of the godhead. Compared to other living organisms on Earth, humans have a more highly developed brain capable of abstract reasoning, language, and introspection. Obviously, this is a very mixed blessing, and as to whether it was a gift from a higher being or an accident of nature, I do not know.

If we ran on pure instinct, however, would you even have the capacity to write this post, questioning the value of being able to make choices? That's what is achingly wonderful about human choices: how our curiosity leads us into the stars or into the gutter; our compassion leads us to save the lives of complete strangers or to be suckered into loving the wrong people; our reasoning leads us to solve complex problems that can improve the lives of many or to justify genetic hatred; etc.

I am disappointed every day of my life by the choices made by others, but I'm willing to accept that as part of the human condition. The alternative -- a world controlled by some form of moral artificial intelligence (programmed by whom?) or humans genetically engineered to filter out the "bad" choosers from the "good" (again, who decides?), is clearly untenable.

Thank you Jan. As always a reasoned post. My sole purpose for this one was to inspire some thought into the thoughtless, immagination into the unimaginable and reactions/responses from our adult members. Too many stupid posts on here of late and trying to set an example of what COULD be if we all put our minds to it.
As always, I value your input and thanks for taking the time.

Yeah, it seems like there's been a serious shortage of mentally challenging posts lately. I enjoyed this one -- hope we see more like it!

i don't believe in evolution,i guess it's a sort of rebellion I have,given that everyone says it's true,when infact it's just a man-made theory.Our flaws are what makes our personalities,and character, and to see the outcome of our choices is what makes the day by day worth living.

-dirt dobbler

I, on the other hand, will think outside the box (as usual) by saying that your idea of choice and freewill are completely unproven principles based completely on the idea of self-consciousness. Self-consciousness emulates freewill by giving us the illusion that we are actually making choices in our everyday lives, however, those so-called choices are simply based on prior knowledge, logic, genetics, and a (possibly infinite) number of other variables that force us into making the decisions that we make. If we had a pure understanding of the universe, everything would be completely predictable. All actions seem predetermined before they happen, based on the cause-and-effect principles synchronized by the physical laws of the universe. Now I will admit that as things get smaller at the subatomic level, they aren't as predictable, however, I will say that could very well be due to imprecise measurements and unknown or hidden variables. When I say unknown variables, I mean deep levels of causality. Things are more chaotic as they get smaller, and when you have chaos, there is that appearance of randomness, however, there may be a pattern to the randomness of such unknown variables that we just don't understand. For all we know, the complete causes of the initial effect continue into measurements that are infinitesimal and we do not exactly have an infinitely powerful microscope to prove that. Causality and the belief that all things happen for a reason is what guides science, and bases many of the scientific conclusions and facts. To say that something simply happens for no reason doesn't make much sense. It would seem irrational to simple accept that kind of conclusion. Even if there were truly random causes, they would be so small that they would hardly effect the decisions we would make as far as freewill goes.

For example, let's say you have two choices; choice A and choice B. You are more inclined to pick choice A; however, to prove your own freewill and disprove determinism, you pick B. By choosing B, you have overridden your initial desire and inclination to choose A simply because your desire to disprove determinism has provoked your desire to choose B. Therefore, B is more appealing to your mind, and thus you choose B over A. This is based on the causality of our everyday decisions, and not freewill at all. We pick what's more appealing, based on our knowledge, logic, and a number of other variables that define who we are fundamentally. Matter is matter, whether it is living or non-living. The brain is a very complex machine made of not mechanical parts, but organic parts, but it is still just a machine. For example, I do not know how a car or computer works precisely, but there are cause and effect relationships in the machinery that allow the machine to work when the key is turned or the power is turned on. When a machine does not do what is expected, it is usually because of a malfunction of some kind and the problem can be tracked down. The human brain is the most complex machine known to man, but if its functions were known; our actions would be perfectly predictable. At the most basic levels, it is just chemical and electrical communication across neurons, nothing more.

You mention human weaknesses. There are far more weaknesses to the human race than you list in your post. Perhaps that is because we consider ourselves to be at the pinnacle of the evolutionary chain, but that conclusion is simply based on the observation of other life-forms that inhabit this planet. Let me list a few more human weaknesses which may be considered far worse than the illusion of freewill. First let me start off with the fact that we are basically stuck on this planet waiting for our ultimate fate. It is highly unlikely that we will ever make it to another planet before this planet is destroyed. Based on heat, radiation, cold, etc, most places in this universe will kill life instantly. At a universal level, our galaxy orbit is bound to come close to a supernova or other phenomenon at some point which will likely wipe out much of the human race. If that doesn't happen, our galaxy will eventually collide with the Andromeda galaxy. If that doesn't kill us, the laws of thermodynamics state that the universe is on a one-way ticket to thermal equilibrium. At a planetary level, there are always earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, floods, tornados, hurricanes, comets, asteroids and other natural disasters that wipe out massive amounts of the human population. Two-thirds of the earth is uninhabitable by humans. Humans aren't immune to diseases, plagues, birth defects, cancer, etc, and our health only gets worse as we age. Compared to our cold-blooded counterparts, we need to eat constantly to stay alive. And I need not mention the faults with our reproductive systems. Suffice it to say, humans are very far from perfect.

And as far as the concept of God goes, why would a perfect God make such imperfect beings?

I've noticed alot of people think this,even people i work with,we have these deep conversations on why God made such an imperfect world.Although i dont go to church anymore,The best way i can describe this would be,to create us as inherently good robots, without the potential for wrong decisions,and doings would not allow for true love or any other emotion probably.So we could never really have a relationship with God or anyone else if we didn't understand why we needed to have one in the first place.

-dirt dobbler

In response to you, violent, I will say that I don't believe in 'true love' for a second. As I mentioned before, the brain is just a machine, although a very complex one. All emotions, including love or lust, can be traced to chemical and neurological reactions within the brain. There is no real 'choice' in the matter. We are indeed biological robots; however, there doesn't appear to be any inherent good or evil. Everything is what it is, and will play out as it should.

Here's a decent example of what I'm talking about. Keep in mind that this is purely a hypothetical scenario. I'm a computer programmer. As a perfect programmer, I have the ability to create the perfect program. In fact, my perfection makes it impossible for me to create any flaws in my code. What good could possibly come from me making flawed code, if it's even possible for a perfect programmer to write flawed code? On the other hand, let's say that this is the perfect code, and everything is playing out as it was meant to, which seems far more logical. That leaves absolutely no room for freewill or choice or even true love. We know, as my last post states, that the human design is an illogical design. So these are the two options here. We're either biological robots, or flawed beings created by a flawed God. Or there's the evolutionary theory that basically says we came from nothingness and will return to nothingness, in which case, we are still, in essence, biological robots with the ability to adapt which leads us right back to the initial option. What do you think?

But our wrong choices is what leads us to perfection. You can't be born knowing to trust a certain person and not another. There's no handbook for parenting. I've learned from other peoples mistakes, such as my mother or my peers. I do agree with Fred that every root of an event is predetermined for us. Yet how you handle the events may change your plans.

I find life so interesting, and I would never regret the events that happened to me. I've learned so much even in my few years of life, not only by my owns mistakes, but others as well.
I can't complain...

well....i guess i'd have to say that i dont think a person is anything like a robot,nor a brain a machine. I just think if man would try to stop proving things scientifically,and start looking at things realistically everything would be so much more simple,and self-explanatory. The human body itself,it's so inimitable,i find it amazing of all the different features,shapes,sizes,and personalities that a person can contain. There is nobody else out there like you,each person has their own endless blueprint,tastes and opinions. Computers are all the same,and besides who's to say what draws the line between a good choice or a wrong choice,it's you,only you that can choose which path you take. That's why to me the idea behind free will seems like it would make sense,everyone has experienced that pain in their chest,blood rush to their face,and their heart vary in rhythms when they did something "bad".

For you to not believe in "true love" is a shame,for there are many different types of love,love can be companionship with another,your parents love you in an indescribable fashion,and if you ever have kids you will understand that type of love.Lust is not love.Love is not something hallmark invented.I've never been in love,but i'm sure like the unique properties of an individual,no love story is the same.

"We're either biological robots, or flawed beings created by a flawed God."

I think people have a hard time believing there could be a god out there who is an omnipotent being,and knows every strand on your head to every thought in your mind. It is a little overbearing to think about really,and by no means do i have the answers on how the origin,demise or afterlife of man came or comes about,but maybe if God did create us,his intentions were when he created us with flaws would be to save us from these flaws,so that he to could have a purpose.


-dirt dobbler

I must completely disagree with you. Maybe you would rather not know the answers while possibly deluding yourself into believing that you're more than just a biological robot. That's fine; but here's where you're flat out wrong. You say that no two humans are exactly the same, and you are correct. But no two rocks are the same. No two snowflakes are the same. And yes, no two computers are exactly alike. I've been around computers long enough to know this. Though they may have much the same functions, they aren't the same. And that 'blood rush' feeling you speak of is simply a biological response, much the same as a computer giving an error message when an error is made. We are just computers that are partially preprogrammed, partially programmed by our environment, and partially programmed by events and other means. That's what makes us different. We have that aspect of evolution and development built in.

Regardless of the type, love is still just a function of the brain. All love has a conditional aspect to it. I see nothing special about it. Yes, it affects different people in different ways, because everybody is different as we've determined. The same can be said for hate, or any other emotion. The difference is, I've concluded from my observations that, overall, love is one of the least productive of all emotions, and in the end, can result in the most emotional pain and suffering of all emotions if it doesn't work out.

I haven't come to a conclusion as to whether an omnipotent and perfect God exists, and I find the idea far less than overbearing. If he does exist, I just question his motives and logic.

I respect what you're saying,but a computer is a machine made by man,it didn't just come into existence by an unknown force like we did,so how could we be like a robot? You say emotions are just a function of the brain,on the contrary if we hadn't developed these emotions,would we not then be robots? Just because we all have the same type of emotions,doesn't make us bionic people,because everything we do,and every sentiment of anything we have ever had is acted upon differently than from another.

I look at nature,and the human body,even how children can grow from something the size of a dot from a ball point pen to an adult,it's incredible. Throughout time people in history have always felt like there was something out there more superior.I mean Indians used to worship the sun,stars,moon,and some even corn,and of course other civilizations have been known to worship idols they created. Honestly i think people who dont believe there is a God are too smart for their own good. I'm not trying to tell you you should believe in God,but having an open mind is better than having a robotic mind. =)

-dirt dobbler

Well let's consider this, once again, purely hypothetical scenario. God creates man in his image. Man is a machine made to serve God's purposes. Man makes computers in his image. Computers serve man's purpose. Do you see the parallels? Computers have very similar functions as humans do; however, computers are superior in many ways. If programmed correctly, a computer can't be wrong unless it malfunctions. Due to the obvious flaws in the universe and human biology, I just can't see how we can be superior to a perfectly programmed computer. The biological nature of humanity itself is a serious flaw, and if you're too blind to see that, I'm sorry for you. Yes, out ability for adaptation is what makes us 'special', but the fact that we can't even understand our own biology enough to repair simple flaws is a concern. So we rely on our primitive breeding techniques to replicate which ultimately limits our abilities due to the great time and effort it takes to find an adequate mate, breed, raise a child, etc. I can think of about a million different designs to create far more superior beings than humans; but my human limitations prevent me from putting these designs into practice. Where you see the creation and evolution of human beings an incredible thing, I simply see it as a fatal flaw. I doubt we can ever come to an agreement on this, but it's still an interesting discussion.

I have never flat out said that I don't believe in God, because I do indeed think that there is a possibility that God exists. I am human, so I don't know everything. I just say that the thought of a perfect God creating flawed humans is highly illogical. Perhaps there is a God, but he is imperfect. Perhaps Alien beings came to this planet long ago and genetically modified primates to mine gold so they could spray into their atmosphere to prevent global climate changes on their planet. Who knows for sure? I don't, and I highly doubt any human will ever know for sure. I always keep an open mind. I just follow the logic that is programmed into me and serve my functions. If something you say seems logical to me, I'll follow your advice. If it doesn't, I won't. And it is my position that, since the existence of a God cannot be proven, I will have to allow my brain to process the data it receives while attempting to come to a logical conclusion.

This can be summed up with:

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Knuck, Gizzie, and Nearly are big tools.

ur an idiot, lots of animals make decisions. Often wether to sleep, or eat. But wutever decision is a decision. HUMANS ARE THE SMARTEST ANIMALS ALIVE. If nobody else makes decisions, who will. (its called anarchy and it dusnt work well)

I CHOSE TO BALL YOUR GIRLFRIEND. IT WAS RIGHT.

I don't have a problem with free will, I have a problem with what people choose to do with free will. It disgusts me.

Hmm...
Either your going emo, or your thinking of world domination through anti-free will chips implanted into the anus of all newborns.
Personally, I like the second better.

we need someone like you to be president here in south afrca. someone who can take the reigns and kick these fuckers into gear. the thing is, we are still evolving. we're practicing. but practice doesn't make perfect. perfect practice makes perfect, and we cannot attain perfection because we don't know it.