There is no god, or if there is he's an ass

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true dat

you need to know god. No God, No peace. Know God,Know peace.

negative much???

Goat I do not agree with that, thousands of murders, killings and a lot of violence has been carried out in gods name. How does knowing god lead to peace? It just leads too violence over the little things about each individual religion.

People like all the prophets were great people they preached peace and all that stuff and I agree with that, but I do not believe in god.

I lost my faith in god years ago. A little bit after my first holy communion really. My granddad is a serious catholic and he just wrote a book about how to be a better catholic, 50$ says im gunna get that this christmas. But I really don't think there can be one, and if there is then I'm going straight too hell... Three guesses why lotsofjunk. And it's not just people in the past that are doing horrible things in the name of god its now too.

If there is then the first thing I'm going to say to him when he's judging me is why the fuck does he tortures billions of people.

There are also flaws in religions which people from that religion tend to overlook. heres an example
"God controls everything we do, and what we think" Then why do we torture and kill?

doing bad things in his name in THE PAST? just pick up a paper to see it is not at all in the past.

yes, God does seem to be a bit of an asshole. But its all we've got. So quit whining and suck it up.

And what if it isn't all we've got? Evolution is a very logical answer to how we got here. We are just a big accident, that may not be as happy a thought than some god that created us but I think it's true, we are just one massive accident that just stuck around. Like having a kid with your gf cuz the condom had a hole in it.

evolution is a logical answer to how we became what we are, etc. but it does not prove or dispute the existence of god.

I believe that there is a higher consciousness than us. but i don't believe it's holy. Its just a being, or beings, living in a different dimension of space and time. Kind of like the way you kill thousands of bacterium when you wipe your kitchen counter clean. You are god in that situation, but you dont think of it that way. you just do what you do. Thats how god is.

God is wiping the counter top we live on. and some other god is wiping the counter top he/she/it lives on. etc etc.

that's my view. what do you think?

Could be. So one day we will all get randomly killed by some person who wanted their counter top clean?

my brain level must be like so much higher than other peoples, because to me it's like "duh, why would i believe in some person people make up and the only reason to believe is becasue some body said "theres some guy named god that has magic skillz and he did magic and make planets with his fingers", and i'm supposed to be like "YEA DUDE, he totally did do magic tricks with his fingers"

but while i thinks it's pretty obvious that it would kind of stupid to do that everybody else keeps doing it

the only thing i can figure is that my brain level is like over 9,000!!! and everybody elses is like at 17.

GET A BRAIN MORANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Flikr you make it sound like your the only person in the world that doesn't believe in god, just by the title you can tell that I do not believe in him, if I thought he did exist then why would I call him an ass?, but a long time ago people started asking why we were here and the easiest answer to understand was some greater power waved his hands and went "let there be light" and there was light, and god said the light was good :) I know that was not the first religion btw, but it is a religion, and so a long time ago people thought a large variety of gods waved their hands and did some magic.

Religion is all just superstition, An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome, and I am not superstitious and it seems some people I know make fun of superstitious people and then go to church and praise god.....

OH well I only believe in logical shit and I like some books about that stuff too, like Bill Bryson's book on a short hghistory of nearly everything, I find them interesting.

@guythatposted

the sad part is that these "fairytales" were made up by cavemen who thought that the sun was pulled by a chariot

and now we are in 2008 and we have science to explain things we don't understand, yet people are still TOO STUPID TO GET IT!

How do you not understand something when everything is already explained but people still make things up and really believe it!

But I stopped caring about trying to prove religious people wrong at about the age of 9 years old.

I was born and raised as a mormon and they do some serious brainwashing in that church. Well at about the age of 7 years old I started questioning it and i would get into like hour long debates with people. Now i just don't give a shit, but it still amazed me how dumb people are.

Oh and it also pissed me off when people actually debate about if there is a god or not. It's basically an insult to my intelligence.

If I were to try to debate with somebody that, it would have be under the pretenses of "are we really doing this" "are like 5 years old and have the brain capacity of a caveman?"

happens all the time

hey flikr...constantly learning something else about you all the time and the puzzle pieces keep falling together.

fascinating. :D.

I like the debates whether there is a god or not, I find them fun especially when the other person actually knows their facts about evolution and has thought about their own religion and decided what they really think is true, though quite a lot of people don't, and I don't believe the Roman and Greek mythology but I prefer it too Christianity and all the other religions, because they had a lot of imagination and what did we make up? a carpenter that can walk on water. Plus the mythology has an answer to every question you could think of, the religions nowadays say "This is like that because god wanted it to be like that"

I was born and raised a catholic, till I got out of my catholic school at least, I started questioning god straight after my first holy communion, ironic huh?, in the second grade. I don't know when my mum stopped believing in god but my granddad is a very big catholic and I have like 20 bibles all givin to me by him. I put them up in the attic so they would be closer to god :)He's making a book about how to be a better catholic, and I'm going to put it up there and never read the first page.

Most the people I know believe in god because they were raised as whatever religion they are and don't question it. I have no respect for anyone that doesn't question their religion and just blindly follows it, I have respect for those who question it and still completely believe it's the correct answer though. Unfortunately there are a lot of people that refuse to listen to the facts of evolution and only try to find the flaws and never look for flaws in their religion.

My friend believes god created the earth, put the first living organisms here, then let evolution run its course and let us live free without any more interference, she thought about it and thinks that is the best answer, though I think she might change her mind when she studies evolution in school, that turned my other friend, who couldn't understand why I don't believe in creationism, too he can't understand why other people believe in creationism.

I don't really like organized religions anyway, they tell you a load of shit that is based off of nothing and expect the entire world too believe that one religion is true.

see, where you and i differ, is that I actually still believe in the old Greek gods.

When I see the sun coming across the sky, I know it would not possibly happen if someone were not pulling it across the heavens in a chariot. That "someone", my friend, is the God Apollo. Kneel, heathen.

You see, I don't care what "science" has to say. I know that today's "science" is all lies to weaken your mind.

Praise Zeus.

Yeah praise Zeus :)
Whats not to believe about all the mythology, Kronos fucked his sister then ate all his children then his son, Zeus, killed his father then married and fucked his sister who then became jealous of anyone his brother, husband, and who know what else, started to have non incest sex with. I'm sure Zeus is from the south.
Completely believable right there :)

SO science is all lies to weaken your mind and religion isnt???

But there is science around know, and I believe that is the right answer, I listen to logic but ignore talks of someone just waved their hands and the world was created.

i dun cer about jeezus, he iz a bizach

it hurts my brain to talk about these idiotic subjects, seriously i actually feel a stinging pain in my brain when i think about it, i'd rather talk about girls and killing things, that doesn't hurt

Ok you wanna talk about boning your sis then??? or some emo girl?

cuz that sounds like a fun con, and is that girl in ur pic ur sis or something then?

yea shes my sister and i want to have sex with her

i think flikr actually IS some emo girl.

This world is a test for us and this world will end sooner or later ( Global warming , xtreme temperatures ect...)

So god sent us in this world to test our deeds , If we worship god and obey his commandments given in His Holy Books according to one's Religion

For christians = Bible

For Muslims = Holy Quran

For Hindus = Vedas

ect
.
.
.

we will receive the reward in the next life which is eternal & starts after this life ends (after death) !

We will go to heaven if our deeds are good and we will go to HELL if our deeds are bad !

All major Religions have many common things for example

1- There is only ONE TRUE GOD [Not Jesus(May God Be Pleased With Him) Jesus(May God Be Pleased With Him) was one of the messengers of GOD but he was not GOD]

2- We should not lie, drink alcohol,and lots of other bad things are prohibited in Christianity , Islam ,Hinduism & other major religions

there are so many more things i can describe with detail and context !

This world is a test for us and this world will end sooner or later ( Global warming , xtreme temperatures ect...)

So god sent us in this world to test our deeds , If we worship god and obey his commandments given in His Holy Books according to one's Religion

For christians = Bible

For Muslims = Holy Quran

For Hindus = Vedas

ect
.
.
.

we will receive the reward in the next life which is eternal & starts after this life ends (after death) !

We will go to heaven if our deeds are good and we will go to HELL if our deeds are bad !

All major Religions have many common things for example

1- There is only ONE TRUE GOD [Not Jesus(May God Be Pleased With Him) Jesus(May God Be Pleased With Him) was one of the messengers of GOD but he was not GOD]

2- We should not lie, drink alcohol,and lots of other bad things are prohibited in Christianity , Islam ,Hinduism & other major religions

there are so many more things i can describe with detail and context !

The World , materials , atmosphere , stars , SUN, solar system etc dosnt came into to existence on there own some one created all that so perfectly that know one can even imagine of creating .000001% of that & that some one is GOD !

GOD is not comparable to anything in this universe !

The moment you compare GOD to anything it is not GOD!

For example you say My GOD is 1 million times stronger than the Strongest man on the earth then it is not god

GOD is uncreated and have no gender or image what so ever !

The Question Who Created GOD is illogical

its like asking a that does you friend John (male) gave birth to a boy or girl ?

Everyone has their own beliefs... personally I don't believe in GOD. I think it's a waste of time to spend the majority of my life "worshiping" in GOD. All of this good deed, bad deed, heaven & hell shit is crap & When you die, you die! & the whole thing about GOD make us.... PLEASE!!! I hate it when people say I wanna thank GOD, I here because of GOD, GOD is my saviour... blah, blah, blah! God doesn't make ur life what it is... "he" didn't sit down and say ok today I'm gonna allow these two people to concieve a child who's path will be this... you make ur life... you creat it.. not God! Anywho...

yeah she's really hot, i have a about 20 other girls that are my myspace friends that are just as hot too

that must be great to be able to jerk off to so many kewl pictures. :-(

You've obviously thought long and deep about this matter, probably when you were drunk. You haven't told us what God you don't believe in. If he's an old man in the sky who writes down our bad deeds in a little black book, only right-wing fundamentalists believe in him. Bishops don't believe in him either, although they don't usually admit it. I suspect most Christians would think that the poverty and injustice you hate is the work of man at his worst - they used to say the work of the Devil - and that God doesn't control every last thing we do, but allows us free-will to love or to sin. Being that I'm a Buddhist, I see it in different terms, but the idea is the same really.

I don't believe in any higher power created us. I have thought about it a lot but not when drunk, though I'm 15,so I don't go down to a bar and get wasted every night.

I am the son of god worship me!

"The meaning of life is to reproduce, we live, eat, drink, f**k, sleep then die. Thats the whole meaning of existence"

That may be the way for you, but not everyone. I'm not going to be the crazy Jesus freak or anything, but I do believe there is a God and that one can have a personal relationship with him.

I have tried to explain this to people who consider themselves atheist about all that goes wrong in the world. The reason why it does is because man has a free will, and he can choose to do whatever he wants with it.

There is a song out now called "no handlebars" by the Flobots and if you read the lyrics it will help you better understand how much power man really has. It is a choice and some people do not care about how their choices effect the lives of others, unfortunately.

Just be thankful you are not any of those people, and try to help them in anyway you can.

Look up my name bro.

The world is like that because Adam and Eve sinned. It will return to Normal when Jesus comes back and takes us all back with him. Even if you dont believe this the meaning of life isnt to eat, drink sleep and do the GIGGITY GIGGGITY. THeres mor to it, you can help your fellow man, experience becoming a hero, a champion the greatest of the great! Be a racer invent flying machines battle with pokemon on your game boy go sky diving in the middle of new york and tick everyone off. Theres more to life than that and you really need a more positive outlook. Thats a really depressing post.

lol do the giggity giggity

I said it's the meaning of life, you can do a lot more with your life if you want though.

And anyway it doesnt matter if it's depressing or not, it's (possibly) the truth, the truth isn't meant to be some romantic ass shit the chances are it is a depressing thing.

BTW this is the guythatposted

Read the Bible...

And I would rather believe iin him he not be there than to not believe and find out he is there



You will burn in hell then!!!!

I have actually read the bible, I was in a catholic school and then my granddad kept pushing Catholicism on me so I was made to read the bible some time, and I would rather believe something that I think is true instead of something I think is a complete lie.

If god wants people to believe that he exists then he should make evidence, like himself come down to earth or something, because all we have to say he exists are people telling you he does and people writing shit.

I think believing in God is done by faith, and faith alone. Most scientists even ones who don't believe in God will tell you that a man named Jesus walked this earth. So there is no need for God to come down here to show you he existed. Just look all around you at creation, and just think about how impossible it is for everything to just appear out of nowhere, somebody had to have created it.

I personally understand what you went through I had to go to church and had to go to christian school. Once I turned 18 I bolted and haven't looked back since.

Honestly, I know this is going to sound crazy, but I think the reason why there is so much pain and suffering along with all the crazies who cause it is because we are overly populated!!!

Jesus may have walked the earth but it's the same as saying some guy named Fred is walking this earth. And it's not impossible for this to appear out of nothing, science has already given theories for it. And if you just don't like the big bang because of the chances that it would work, because everything had to be perfect for it to sustain life, are one in a billion then yo didn't count the failed trials, if there is too much gravity after a while the entire universe will collapse into itself and start from the beginning, and it may still do that some time.

You could be right, but i don't think humans could have made it as long as they have said we have been around. humans are too cruel to one another. I don't think gravity changes, but i'm not really smart when it comes to science. i do know if we were any farther from the sun we would be frozen and if we were any closer to it we would fry. It just seems odd that everything would be perfectly balanced, and there not be a reason behind it.

Well for all we know there could have been billions of big bang's and after a while it's going to get it right sooner or later, there is a whole thing and they tested life but they couldn't form it because there was something missing which they couldn't obtain right there and then, but there was back when the earth was made. It could have been the immense pressure of the water or something, I can't completely remember, but they did make very basic amino acids.

OH REALLY? THEN GO CLIMB THAT FUCKING MOUNTAIN ZEUS LIVES ON, BITCH.
science? lies? FUCK YOU. science is backed up by FACTS. if you deny FACTS, then deny gravity, deny life, deny everything you know. deny that your mother is really your mother. WHAT. WHAT NOW. GOT ANYTHING ELSE TO SAY, BITCH?

Calm down, you don't have to insult him, besides he was probably joking anyway. Anyway some people could believe the god made earth billions of years ago, then he created the first most basic living organisms then he fucked off and evolution took it course from there.

I think science is true and that there is no god but not everyone does, and you should respect that.

His post reminds me of Slackjaw just an observation mind you.

Is that you Slackjaw?

no, i have nothing else to say. I've been humbled.

oh, btw, I have been praying to Zeus to find you and strike you with a lightning bolt. According to my beliefs, you should be bacon by this time tomorrow.

"...if we were any farther from the sun we would be frozen and if we were any closer to it we would fry. It just seems odd that everything would be perfectly balanced, and there not be a reason behind it."

Maybe you are right. Or maybe it's random. if you typed in random letters from a typewriter for 1 million years, for example, you'd probably come up with at least a few pages from Shakespeare or Doskiofsky or at least Steven King. so maybe in an infinite universe with infinite time, things fall into place once in a while. maybe we will find out that it has fallen into place in many other parts of the universe as well.

Dostoiefsky, that is

Chances of us finding life on any other planet are incredibly slim though, well we may be able to see what they were like millions of years ago with a very good telescope that can zoom right in on a planet, but to actually talk to one they would have to travel the universe for thousands-billions of years to reach us, good news is we wont have to worry about evil aliens coming to enslave us tho

dude the real aliens are right in front of our noses in a parallel dimension. You don't get to them by traveling to another planet, i.e. traversing one or more of the three spacial dimensions we are aware of. You get to them by traversing the nth dimension. then BOOM, there they are.

And how do you know that? the chances are their is life on another planet though, theres so many one of them must at least have very simple life. Though we will never know, unless we make slow migrations across the stars for billions of year. So we wouldn't know but humans might some day, if we haven't destroyed ourselves by then.

I hate to say this, but I agree with you.

y do you hate to say it?

According to the infallible Bible (and other Abrahamic texts):

God created Eve from Adam's rib. Now, all the cells in Adam's rib would have an X and a Y chromosome in the 23rd pair. Having been created out of Adam's rib, Eve would also have the same chromosomes as Adam, which makes Eve (Steve?) male and both of them homosexual. So the first "book" of the Bible proves that it is self-inconsistent because supposedly Adam and Eve had three children - which couldn't happen. Of course, we can avoid this problem if we assume that god performed a miracle about which we've not been told. This is generally the answer given when believers don't have an answer.

For god's sake, let's assume that said miracle was performed and all the Y chromosomes were replaced by X chromosomes before Adam and Eve (Steve?) did the "giggity giggity" and created three boys.

Finally the boys grew up, and since they were forbidden to pork their mother, they went out and found some new hoes that hopefully hadn't been tapped yet...wait...the only other people on the planet were their parents!

Unless...unless...either they f*cked their sisters - or another miracle occurred about which we've also not been told and god created some b1tches for them to...well, you know.

If they hooked up with their sisters (who would have to be geneticaly identical to them and their parents, by the way), we have our very first incestuous relationships and we've barely gotten started!

Since everyone is genetically identical, this would explain why there are so many idiots on the planet today.

Another annoying problem that won't go away is the whole Noah's flood thing.

Supposedly, it rained alot and there was a flood that covered the earth to the tops of the highest mountains. Because Noah was tight with god (or The Weather Channel), he had advanced warning about this and built a big, shiny boat so he and his family and all the other animals (besides humans) would survive. (No mention is made of all the plant species that would die from the flood, so we have to assume he brought samples of them, too.)

Noah Question 1: Where did all the water come from? If you (that is, god) were to melt all the ice on Earth *and* gather all the water vapor from the atmosphere, you (she) wouldn't even come close to drowning the planet. The oceans would have to be almost 7 miles deeper than they are today and there's not near enough water on the planet to do that.

What? Another miracle?

Noah Question 2: Why is there a Texas Blind Salamander? Supposedly, Noah gathered pairs of all the animals (and, presumably plants) and put them on his big, shiny boat so they wouldn't be swept away by the mean and nasty flood. However, I think we can safely assume that Noah never visited San Marcos, Texas, which was the only location on the planet where he could have collected the Texas Blind Salamander. This salamander is not adapted to salt water and would have been extincted by the flood of seawater. The same argument applies to innumerable other species about which Noah could not have known, but still exist today.

Let me guess - a miracle?

Noah Question 3: Where did all the water go after the flood was over?

I know, I know. Yet another miracle, right?

By the way, a Christian friend of mine told me that after Noah's canoe trip with his family, Noah accidentally drank some fermented grape juice and got so drunk that he took his clothes off. Can you imagine the horror?

When his sons discovered this, they walked backwards into his tent with a blanket to cover his nakedness. They walked backwards because apparently it's a sin for a child to see his parent naked. (My son and daughter are going to hell since I almost never wear clothes!)

Anyway, one of Noah's pervert boys "accidentally" saw his father's d1ck and, according to my friend, was turned into a black man. So, this is where black people came from! And all this time I thought dark skin was an evolutionary response to abundant UV light. Silly me!

haha nice, if its a sin to see your parents naked then it must have taken for fucking ages for the humans to start off because you can only fuck your sister. Surely they fucked their mum constantly, and their daughters too. And yes they were all from the south so its fine to fuck family members.

do you believe that the universe, or even your immediate surroundings, are as you think they are? do you believe that the 3 dimensional world we know is the totality of all existing dimensions?

Your argument for life on other planets(which I agree with, btw) is the same argument for the existence of other dimensions which we are not able to perceive and which contain life forms we are not aware of (although they may or may not be aware of us).

"Though we will never know, unless we make slow migrations across the stars for billions of year".

I believe there are much quicker ways to get to places that are billions of years away. I believe that our sense of space is largely an illusion, and that it is possible to be instantly in another place we currently think of as being "far away".

I suppose the other dimension things would work, I don't know if we would ever be able to get to one though.


Well when I said billions of years I meant billions of LIGHT years, a shit load faster than just us in a rocket. We haven't been able to get anything to the speed of light yet, let alone even faster. A teleporter will only really work if one of 2 things happen, one it makes a clone of you, in every possible way, memories, way you think, all that shit, I mean the whole you walk into a machine then you walk out somewhere else clone not the kind that we can do today. Or 2) it takes us apart an atom at a time and sends us there, though even if we culd do that and not lose many atoms in the process the whole speed thing is still a problem seeing as those atoms will need to travel billions times faster than the speed of light to reach some planets that may, or may not, have life on it.

If you take every atom on this planet and randomly tossed them onto other planets, theres a high chance that none of them are close than hundreds of light years apart.

the thing is that human transportation has not advanced much since the horse drawn carriage. sure we can now go faster, or more impressively, we can travel "up" and not just back and forth on the ground. but we are still just dragging, pulling or pushing ourselves across "space".

when we get over this limitation, we will be able to travel to "far off" places, billions of light years away because the nature of the 3 spacial dimensions we exist in is not what it seems.

i believe that what we THINK to be linear distance is actually a folded curvy expanse wrapped around other dimensions. by accessing the other dimensions, we should be able to traverse our "huge distances" instantly, or in significantly less "time".

the concept of "wormholes" existing in our universe is part of this idea. the theory behind this is too expansive to put in this type of forum.

See what I'm saying though?

Yeah I see what your saying.

Also the universe also bends everything in it bends it, the planets, the stars, the black holes everything. If you bend it enough you can instantly go from one place to another, I can't remember if this is a worm hole or something different entirely, what I do know is that this creates a shit load of gravity and it would take longer fighting all of that gravity than it would making something do this, also if you leave the universe bent with all of that gravity pushing on it it then causes a black hole.

right, but the folds are not spacial folds, they are dimensional folds. and those folds are invisible to us because they traverse a dimension we have no perception of.

like if you were a being who only understood length and width, but not height, and I folded your space so that one flap of the plane you existed within was ON TOP of another part of that plane(ON TOP being something you have no perception of)you would have no way of knowing that a "far away" point was actually right next to you. You would perceive the distance to that far away point as being at a linear distance.

That's the illusion we live under now.

You have a point there, its the same as the shape of the universe, it actually has a certain size, but at the same time it's endless. If you go straight forever, never going up, down, left or right, you will eventually end up back in the same place as you started out as. If you tell someone, that has only ever seen a straight line before and has never heard of a circle, to walk around the whole earth (just pretend there were no oceans of mountains or anything on the earth so you can just walk straight around it) he will eventually end up where he started and be totally confused as to how he got back there.

yeah, that's right :D

oooooo
about time this debate got more interesting. go see the other debates, like the one named "i hate christians". i looked at this for half a second and decided it was ullshit, so i fucked off a bit and went to another. its a bit late today and i got a whole lot to say. hf, ill be back tomorrow ^^

oh and btw, i don't debate on exactl HOW the universe was created. i only debate on how religion is complete bullshit and all of it can be disproven. tata ^^

I didn't want a big debate on how religion can be disproved, I was just voicing my opinion and wanted other people to say what they thought about it.

okay guys, i have way too much to say, so im gunna write a little section for now. heres a piece for today.

okay, this is directed towards atheists, and theists. this part is for those who think that we should not attack religion, simply because it doesn't interfere with us. i have to respectfulyl disagree.
religion, especially christianity, limits our very RIGHT as atheists. it was not recorded, however, in an interview, george bush stated himself that he did not consider atheists to be patriotic or citizens of america. while over 95 percent of the population would vote for homosexuals or blacks, only 49% would vote for atheists as president.
in this world, especially in america, atheists are muchly hated, and are treated as badly as blacks 50 years ago. Many educated personnel on the american counsil had to fake their beliefs in order to be elected. Considering america was founded by men stating that religion should never mix with politics, this country has become a disgrace to it's founders.
from the crusades to modern day racism against atheism, i can honestly say, religion has always been, and always will be, for as long as it exists, an interferance to the proper education of science, and according to your statement, your life. you may not notice it, but the older you get, the more you realise, how much religion has taken away from you. even though religion was taken out of the school education system, there are always presentations on the subject from many churches, and the kids ranging from kindergarden to high school are forced to listen. those kids know only to obey the teacher. they don't even know about religious freedom. to them, they have no choice. it is the same as forcing a child to become christian/morman/whatever religion.
i have experienced this myself when i was 8. i did not know i could leave at any time. and at the time, if a student tried to leave, the teacher would not allow it. i remember the great impact the bible they gave us and the words they gave us had on us. children that young, who does not even have the generally accepted, by science, and by the education system, the big bang theory, already being fed religion. why are children learning a hypothesis, or even a lie, before learning what is accepted by the scientific and educational community as a fact and truth?
those children are easily convinced and manipulated through complicated and hard-to-comprehend words of religion, and, due to human curiosity, every child is bound to have thought of the question, "how did we exist."
most parents would simply say, "you are too young", and leave the kids wondering. how grateful would the kids be, after all that time, to learn what they thought was "the truth"? they wouldn't even understand what a religion was. they'd think that it is the truth. once a child learns something, it is very difficult to change their minds. this is how religion is spread. once you tell a child, who wants nothing more than happiness, and to have fun, that by believing in god they will be forevermore happy, how will you ever convince them otherwise?
how is it that religion has ever been removed from schools? all of what i have written clearly shows, even though it is out of the official system, it is still part of the unofficial one, as a "school event". as long as the perverted hypothesis of creationism is in existence, kids will always be brain-washed by it. nowadays, you hear creationism everywhere. it is impossible to keep a child away from that. this is why, as atheists, we are always affected by religion, creationists, and theists.

Wow, that is actually very well written and proves your point, the problem is that most kids do know they have a choice, I'm 15 I stopped believing in god when I was in second grade, straight after my first holy communion I started questioning god. I was in a catholic school so from reception, year R, (dunno what that is in america, whatever is before the one before first grade, so 2 grades below first, you join it when your 5 years old)all the way to year 6 (5th grade) and I stopped believing in year 3 (2nd grade) my parents didn't tell me much about god or science, we went to church on occasion, Easter Christmas, and when my grandparents came round. My granddad was a MAJOR catholic. So I did grow up with no scientific info and quite a bit on god, but I just started to think of the evils in this world and how much of an ass god really is if he even does exist. And now I'm an atheist.

Did you just make up those statistics??? by the people I know round here it'd more likely be 10% would vote for a gay president and 1% for an atheist. Though I do live in the bible belt right now.

Religion will always be a part of politics, no matter how hard you try, if 90% of the population is a certain religion then they will more likely vote for someone that is of the same faith than someone that believes something else, even if that person still believes in god, heaven, hell etc...

no i didn't make up those statistics. it was in a survey across america. richard dawkins also mentions this as a point in his book, "the god delusion". it is also true, and mentioned, that many kids don't know that "they could", in many aspects. an example would be this religion buisness. another is, if a child doesn't like his school, he would immediatly assume that his parents wouldn't let him change schools just because he didn't like it. if it's a good reason, chances are the parents would. some kids underestimate their rights, and some overestimate it. i was never religious, but kids that young are very easily affected.

the problem is, that not a huge majority is in a single religion. if they only voted for someone of their own religion, the voting system would be seriously corrupted. according to the religious, they feel that atheists are not "fit" to be leaders, because they do not have ANY "god" helping them. but i ask them, to open their eyes, and take one good look at China. in 30 years they became a superpower in military strength and economy, all due to the "iron fist" of the communist goverment. is this type of goverment morally right? of course not. but if your country is seriously fucked up, 50 years of communism would set it straight. i expect the communism in China to drop dramaticly as their economy tops the those of other powerful countries, or maybe much higher. that, i assume, is their goal.

I'd rather have a leader that doesn't trust in god to help him out with leadership, I don't mind if they are religious but they shouldn't use any religion in leading the country. If someone is atheist they won't be like "well dont worry god will save us" they will do something. the religion problem is not as bad today as it was over a thousand years ago. But still religion influences politics and it shouldn't in any way shape or form.

http://www.johnsrevenge.com/?id=5890af501a263ce12b33fc14cadfc92f

everyone click on the link

i seriously agree. but for the first part, thats just switching my point around =.=
i agree with it, but its the part where they say a leader SHOULD have god's assistance that tick me off. it's kind of contradictory, since the country itself was FOUND by men whom agree that religion should never, in any form, be associated with politics. and yet, george bush himself stated that he believed god was by his side helping him with his job. and i can't help but notice that almost all major wars are based on religion. a nice quote from hitler:
"And hence today, I believe I am acting apon the will of the Almighty."

OH WOW
nice link. i clicked. tell me if the first vid actually shows xD

Yeah I completely agree with no religion in politics. Major wars did start with religion, i stated that a few times up near the top. religion should be allowed and if you want it taught in schools fine, but not as a science, as a separate Religious education class that teachers you all the religions, and at an age where u wont believe everything. We had that in england a third of the class were atheist a half were agnostic and the rest were religious. And it worked out fine, no views changed at all, just gav us a lesson to talk and shit.

yeah the vids showed.

http://www.johnsrevenge.com/?id=a02250f72d6ea5a9c7b20a0c85dd3cf4

dont fill in ur email address, I did it and im pretty sure thats a scam, at one point u hav to put your mothers maiden name and I'm pretty sure later on it'd ask for your credit card number.

Another aspect to early brainwashing:

Infants are wholly and completely dependant on their caregivers (usually parents). As such, they quickly begin to view their CGs as "s(he) who has god-like powers" and begin to revere them as such. When this god-like person later explains to the child that they, themselves, fear god, the child makes the connection that this parent-god is in fear of this all-powerful god and therefore, that all-powerful god must be incredibly powerful. This is reinforced with admonitions against angering the big god or really bad things will happen to you.

It's near impossible to beat a racket like that with rational and logical thinking because the rational and logical mind is not developed until many years after the irrational and illogical has been firmly implanted.

It seems unlikely that we will overcome this mass brainwashing any time soon. Perhaps not even before we destroy our planet's ability to support our species. Too bad. We had a good thing going.

Perhaps the reason you became enlightened so early is that your parents didn't cram religion down your throat as most religious parents do.

I have had a similar experience in that I was baptised Catholic, not forced to go to church regularly, and embraced logic and reason at an early age.

Yeah that is also true.

But people your making it sound like no child in the world can possibly believe anything other than what they were raised to believe. God was being pushed on me at a very young age and I hav like 50 bibles and shit up in the attic from what my granddad gave me over the year. And I stopped believing in god shortly after my first holy communion and if I could do it then it isn't really that hard for anyone else to do it. You need to brainwash a child into that shit because if you tell a 16 year old who has never heard of god in their life that a carpenter walked on water and turned water into wine theyd think your fucking retarded. So they just pretty much force a kid into believing it, some do some don't.

I think the founding fathers actually were adamant that our government not support one religion over another. Many of them were fairly religious. Since they were of different religions and were seeking "asylum" from the forced religions in their home countries, they agreed not to allow the government to prefer one religion over any other.

This is distinctly different from not allowing religion.

There shouldnt be any religion in politics though. I mean people can be religious and hold an position of authority, but they shouldn't bring any religion into anything that could affect anyone.

Where are you from? I ask this because I have noticed something, where I lived back in England a very small percentage were actually very religious, all of my friends were at least agnostic, coincidence I didn't ask them first then decide if I shuld be friends with them, and none of their parents actually crammed god down their throats. but now that I live in America everyone is insanely religious and everyone's parents were teaching their kids about god and my biology teacher kept mentioning every single day tht we were learning about evolution that there can still be a god and how it fits very well into wat the bible said. She was like "well god made the world and everything that inhabits it in 7 days, and if you look you can see that the world's evolution is split into 7 parts, so even though it actually took place over billions of years it still works" And I was thinking, no it really doesnt, seven days is the time it takes for the Earth to spin 7 times, billions of years is the World going round the son billions of times, it really doesnt work.So even while learning about evolution we had god crammed down our throats.

BTW the asking where you lived and sayin that ppl I knew in england were less religious, I was saying that if the parents believe in god and tell you about him at an early age theres a higher chance you will too. My friend used to be very religious and god hadn't been forced on him much, but as soon as we took the evolution class he changed to an agnostic. which shows that if your religious and you havnt been forced onto god it seems to be pretty easy to change your mind, but if you have been forced onto god you are generally adamant in the idea that god exists. Some guy once called me a retard because I don't believe in the power of prayer, I called him a retard because if he looks at the world then he can see that god doesn't give a shit about us and cares even less about our prayers.

I think in fact all the founding fathers constantly talked about "God" and "Providence" at least in their writings. The word "God" appears in the declaration of independence.

Bush speaking about his faith and "God" would not be an offense to the founding fathers. But a few things Mr. Bush has done probably would be.

I live, and grew up, in the Bible Belt of the U.S. My wife did also. I was raised by an agnostic Catholic, and therefore only had a little religious indoctrination.

My wife, on the other hand, was thouroughly indoctrinated and even spent a few summers during college smuggling bibles into the Soviet Union to help "save" the heathens. Boy, was she brainwashed!

After being asked to leave her church because she divorced her dickhead first husband, she started thinking that it wasn't all that. She'd never heard of Jesus rejecting someone, so it didn't add up and she started asking questions. Then I came into her life and, along with me, logic and reason. She's on our side now.

So, it can work both ways although I'm dubious that my wife's situation is very common. There are also cases where too much indoctrination leads to total rejection (my wife - and you - may be a variant of this type).

I don't think it's impossible for people to change from their upbringing. I just think it fits a bell curve. Those in the margins are more restless or inquisitive than those in the comfy middle.

Most people need and/or want the security and freedom of having someone else tell them what to do and how to think because they are not comfortable that they can do it for themselves. It removes alot of effort if someone else already has all the answers and they don't have to work it through for themselves.

This is why our society (and democracy as our founding fathers conceived it) will not last. Politicians (and their corporate puppeteers) have learned from religion and history that if you can dumb-down the populace, you can manipulate and control them. We have the illusion of controlling our "elected" officials, but we don't really pull the strings.

@: P00LTOY also

In Thom Hartmann's book, "What Would Jefferson do?", Benjamin Franklin is quoted:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." Franklin goes on to say that by the age of 15, he also doubted Christian teachings.

Hartmann also points out that Washington himself had "never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion".

i dont know, i went to catholic school and whatnot..
but i believe in god or atleast something good.. i just hope when i die,
my soul will go some where happy because
living now is so very depressing and unhappy, but i try to make the best of it.
and the only reason why the world is so shitty because people WANT it to be like that, all people see is the negative shit in their lives not the good.
thats why so many turn to drugs and alcohol cause their life "soo bad"
thats why god made you have a mind to think for yourselves believe what you want
but when you die you'll end up with either one
god, or the devil, or even limbo.
just do nice things for people even though they prolly wont return the favor but hey, doesnt it make you feel good afterwards?..

p.s i dont think this post made any sense but it did to me ha.

People turn to drugs and alcohol - and sex, Sexcrzyf**k - for many reasons.

Help me understand this:

You don't think your post made any sense, but it did to you?

Is that an oxymoron or a quote from George W?

hahaha
well i meant that cause its hard for me to explain things..
and yes, are their other reasons why they turn to drugs and alcohol?
majority of them is because they were abused as a child and the substance makes them feel "wanted"
thats what happened to me.

That would imply that there is something missing in your life. Perhaps one needs more than belief in god.

As for the abuse, I found that several years of therapy helped to address the abuse I encountered as a child and teenager.

BTW, religious indoctrination is a form of abuse, isn't it?

i got my share of "help"
hey im not pushing anything on anyone i just wish people would kinda think about others opinions.

Likewise...

I try to think about other people's opinions and I don't judge them on what they believe or anything, but as long as they think about it, I can't respect someones beliefs if they don't even think about what they're believing, if you believe the bible word for word fine I don't mind, but if you ONLY believe it because your priest told you it then that's not good. If some random on the street tells you something and you think about it and think it sounds very logical then the flying spaghetti monster could be your god for all I care.

Also people I have found to be the least accepting of other beliefs are the ones that dont think about their own, they go "He doesn't believe what my priest once said, he's a retard" the ppl that bother thinking about it go "He doesn't believe what my priest said, he has a slightly different view than me, I really don't care"

Of course there are those that think of their religion and won't accept other peoples beliefs.

i know that,
i believe things on my own, not because someone told me too..

Thats good but quite a few people don't think about there religion, especially where I live,in the bible belt.

Like there was this girl that was asked if she was anti-abortion or pro choice and she replied "Im Christian so what do they believe" then the guy was like "Anti-abortion" then she was like "ok thats wat I believe too"

Wild child, call on the name of Jesus, you can deny him, but what will you do in the day of judgement when he comes? Um.... That's right, your gonna start crying but it will be to late. You will be cast in hell.... So its a waste of time dealing with an idiot like you. Why don't you learn to pray more and ask god to help you, instead of talking bad about the gospel. Besides when your in hell you will regret everything you said, you loser.

Or there is no hell, and no judgement day. No god means it's a waste of time to pray, besides even if there is a god he doesn't give a shit about us or about the world, if he did care about the world he wouldn't have let humans exist and if he cares about us he wouldn't make many of us live in poverty, so it's either he shouldve never have let us live in the first place, or kill us off when we first started destroying this world, or let us all have a good life, and not just a small amount of us.

Besides if god does exist then he should at least respect us sticking with our beliefs, even if they weren't his beliefs, and not everyone believes in Christianity, Judaism, or whatever religion you are and so do you think that everyone not in YOUR religion is going to hell? or just those that don't believe in god? Either way the only people that should go to hell are the one's that fuck up other peoples lives, the murderor's, rapists, etc... not just those people that don't believe god.

from what im hearing, sungirl is only believing because of FEAR of burining in hell
in that case, would god really let you escape that, even thought yu are believing out of fear?
god, im assuming, is looking for TRUE believers, not ones that would say they believe, or even believe, out of pure fear. god would more likely respect the atheists for being honest and not be indoctrinated by fake faith. us, burn in hell? more like you cowards who believe out of pure fear
and, your entire argument is based on the assumtion and FALSEHOOD that god exists, and that he is still around to give a shit. just like the one i've talked to earlier, you are using god's name in vain by using it as a threat. would he really send you to heaven for saying that?

when it comes to proving god exists, you damn theists always make false assumptions.
for example, history. whenever theres a gap, you say that is proof of god. well, there will always be gaps, however small. and just because there is a gap, it does not prove that there really is a god acting in, making the gap. most foolish theists just assume this, making "god" the default.
another example would be evolution. they compare evolution with chance. they say, "look at this marvelous animal. look at the eyes, so sharp and keen. could this have happened by chance?"
well, this is all on the assumption that the eye came to be BY chance, and also the assumption that the percentage not filled in by chance is, by default, god. for example, lets say theres 1% chance of the eye randomly being formed. they falsely assume the other 99% MUST be god
now, evolution, the EYE, isn't by chance. it is like a mountain, with one side slowly inclining, the other side a cliff. it is very unlikely for a person to jump right on top of the cliff, however on the other side they can SLOWLY get on top. evolution is the same thing. it didn't just happen by chance. it happened graduately, every piece over 95% likely. it's the same thing as breeding dogs.
so, if they would like to assume that evolution is complete chance, all at once, not in graduate stages, fine. they immediately say that its proof of intellegent design. i will say this again. intellegent design isn't the default. there are probably countless ways we could have existed without the need of intellegent design.
now, the biggest flaw of the intellegent design arguement, is that if the mere eye is so complicated that it MUST have been created by a greater being, that would make that being (god) even more complicated. therefore, according to the same logic as the arguement of intellegent design, that being (god) MUST have been created. got anything else to say? i will gladly hear it and crush it.
you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, sungirl. i disrespect all theists, because they follow their beliefs blindly, without proof. faith is nothing but bullshit, all it is, is a hallucination they entangle themselves into. it is obviously false, yet they prefer to be indulged in the illusion in order to live life hapily. whats so wrong aboutthe world without a god? are you afraid of seeing nothing to live for? well?

If I were judging someone based on what they believe I would focus on why they believe it not what they believe. As you just said sungirl is believing this out of fear of going to hell, that's the wrong reason, but I am atheist because I believe there is no god and if there is then he has tortured way too many people for me to respect anyway.

Think about this, if a mother only had a child so that she could torture it and kill it, should she deserve punishment? Yes, the child may not have existed without her but it was being tortured so it would be better not to have existed. Lets pretend there is a god then god is our parent and is torturing us for as long as the human race lives. So why are we meant to worship god who tortures us when we send people that murder their own kids to prison?? there is no difference between them. That is why god shouldn't be worshiped.

Some people believe in both god and evolution.
Like god created this world then fucked off.

Anyway, you shouldn't outright say there is no god. I say there could or couldn't, though if there is then I make out that he's really bad, so it's either nothing or a douche. Ahh no, I called god a douche, I'm gunna burn in hell!!

i agree with everything you just said. true, i can't disprove god comletely. but to deal with the chance of all the evidence against god, the chances of god existing is microscopic. like you, i focus on WHY they believe it, but ALSO what they believe. in the old testament, the god promoted killing one's own child, the genocide of homosexuals, and the ownership of women to men. sound very much like god? sound very much like a good religion? if a religion supports this kind of immoral bullshit, then even if the god is REAL, he STILL should be worshipped.

I see what you are saying, though I more focus on why they believe and not what they believe.

Do you mean he still shouldnt be worshiped? not should.

Pringletot was banned so I had to make a new one btw.

If ppl want to believe in God that's their full right. It's also their full right to do so without being judged or bothered for doing so.

All the god bashing posts in this thread could have been substituted for one sentence stating "I dont believe in God for my own reasons".

But atheists cant stop there can they? They have to denigrate religious ppl and their beliefs. People like you always point to the religious ones as intolerant but take a look in the mirror.

It's no longer a one way street. For every atheist that bemoans the common religious view that non-believer are doomed to damnation, theres a religious person that has to suffer at the hands of another "I opened my eyes and saw the bullshit now let me tell the world!" atheist who speaks down to religious ppl as if they are somehow superior and have to tell the whole fucken world about it.

Rant over.

Hey, bro if there is not a God then how did you get here on this Place you just randomly appeared of of thin air?. people always say that you have a purpose in life and you may not see it at first but it's always there and belive me you will find that missing piece of life.

doctor zip, i can FULLY explain how the universe came to be, a theory that has many times more proof than your little god. you people who think god has created everything has no imagination. normally i won't even bother explaining to you. the arguement you have just used is so useless, it is not even used in expert debates. instead, just go read the book, the god delusion.
just to get you started, go google "the big bang theory" i don't expect you to understand it. you might ask, who created the big bang? well, for one, it doesn't necessarily have to have been created. it can simply already have been there. if you think it MUST have been created, then you have a lack of imagination. because, according to the laws of thermodynamics, energy cannot be created. coal is energy. everything is a form of energy. if you say that the laws of thermodynamics is wrong, boy, you would be dead right now. if the laws of thermodynamics does not exist, none of us could live.
now, lets say that SOMEHOW the universe WAS created. and let's say science can't explain how. what the FUCK makes god the default for something that can't yet be answered? well?
now, you people believe in a god who is omnipotent, omniscient, the purity of goodness, etc...that would be the definition of god. otherwise, it wouldn't be a god.
now, ill let you in on a little secret. for you dumbass idiots who can't see it, theres a damn paradox in that.
first off, the laws of science disallow omnipotence and omniscience. im sure you're not conviced by that, since he's "god" and all.
now, lets say that because hes omniscient, he knows exactly how hes going to intervene to change the world into its final stage using his omnipotence. but wouldn't that mean god is unable to change the "future", which he FORSAW using his omniscience? in other words, he can't change his own actions? wouldn't that mean he's NOT omnipotent? so, what if he COULD change the "future" he forsaw. wouldn't that mean what he forsaw earlier was invalid, and therefore proving hes not omniscient.
in this sense, "god" can only be omniscient OR omnipotent. however, a being with only ONE of these qualities isn't even defined as a "god". so you are left with two options.
option one, assuming god is only omnipotent. This would mean he created everything, but has morals as valid as you or me. he cannot see the future, nor predict what we will do. he cannot see every little dark thought we have. this means, he has no control over us. if he did, we are just dolls, without a choice. so why not just go kill yourself now?
now, option two, assuming god is omniscient. this is even worse. this would mean he did not create the universe, and cannot defy laws of gravity, thermodynamics, and etc. in this sense, he wouldn't even be omniscient, since it goes against science and the laws. this would also mean he would have to be created AFTER the creation of the universe, which invalids his very creation, due to the laws.
so, since option 1 pretty much disables god's ability to direct the world or affect us with "faith", this either means god is waiting for a time to just come down and show his face, and admit he can't know a thing.
or, he created the universe and retired after that, just existing without a goal or point, all the way through eternity.
or, there is no god, and all this is talk about the almighty is bullsh*t.
you should also read this entire debate before speaking,ikeBro. i have already fully explained why i will not just allow religion to exist. ill copy and paste, you can read it from here.
okay, this is directed towards atheists, and theists. this part is for those who think that we should not attack religion, simply because it doesn't interfere with us. i have to respectfulyl disagree.
religion, especially christianity, limits our very RIGHT as atheists. it was not recorded, however, in an interview, george bush stated himself that he did not consider atheists to be patriotic or citizens of america. while over 95 percent of the population would vote for homosexuals or blacks, only 49% would vote for atheists as president.
in this world, especially in america, atheists are muchly hated, and are treated as badly as blacks 50 years ago. Many educated personnel on the american counsil had to fake their beliefs in order to be elected. Considering america was founded by men stating that religion should never mix with politics, this country has become a disgrace to it's founders.
from the crusades to modern day racism against atheism, i can honestly say, religion has always been, and always will be, for as long as it exists, an interferance to the proper education of science, and according to your statement, your life. you may not notice it, but the older you get, the more you realise, how much religion has taken away from you. even though religion was taken out of the school education system, there are always presentations on the subject from many churches, and the kids ranging from kindergarden to high school are forced to listen. those kids know only to obey the teacher. they don't even know about religious freedom. to them, they have no choice. it is the same as forcing a child to become christian/morman/whatever religion.
i have experienced this myself when i was 8. i did not know i could leave at any time. and at the time, if a student tried to leave, the teacher would not allow it. i remember the great impact the bible they gave us and the words they gave us had on us. children that young, who does not even have the generally accepted, by science, and by the education system, the big bang theory, already being fed religion. why are children learning a hypothesis, or even a lie, before learning what is accepted by the scientific and educational community as a fact and truth?
those children are easily convinced and manipulated through complicated and hard-to-comprehend words of religion, and, due to human curiosity, every child is bound to have thought of the question, "how did we exist."
most parents would simply say, "you are too young", and leave the kids wondering. how grateful would the kids be, after all that time, to learn what they thought was "the truth"? they wouldn't even understand what a religion was. they'd think that it is the truth. once a child learns something, it is very difficult to change their minds. this is how religion is spread. once you tell a child, who wants nothing more than happiness, and to have fun, that by believing in god they will be forevermore happy, how will you ever convince them otherwise?
how is it that religion has ever been removed from schools? all of what i have written clearly shows, even though it is out of the official system, it is still part of the unofficial one, as a "school event". as long as the perverted hypothesis of creationism is in existence, kids will always be brain-washed by it. nowadays, you hear creationism everywhere. it is impossible to keep a child away from that. this is why, as atheists, we are always affected by religion, creationists, and theists.

now, i have another to add. you say we SHOULDN'T interfere with their beliefs,because they never do the same to us? well, not only does the above prove taht wrong, theres also something else. the CRUSADES. they decided that anyone who didn't believe in god was evil and deserve to be punished, and murdered them all in inhuman ways. not only does this prove my point, but does this not go against their own religion? thou shall not kill. well, they just sinned, huh? lets say it was GOD's will. okay, then god just sinned. he's evil. very much like a god, huh? and isn't it supposed to be god's job to judge who is evil? how is it that they know it is THEM that's the evil ones? why are they doing god's work? would you say that they did the right thing? if you do, then YOU are evil.
if you read the old testament, god supported killing one's own children, the killing of homosexuals (which is his OWN CREATION, so did so called GOD make a mistake?), and the ownership of women to men. not only is this ungodly, full of evil, but it goes against our very morals and our sense of good and evil.
if believing in god means turning you into a heartless beast, killing your own children, turning yourself into a grand version of hitler, then i would rather die, that worship such a being. there are much more to be said, you should go up and read what i said earlier. most of your arguements for god is pitiful, to say the very least, if not delusional. think twice before believing in a being of such cruelty, dogma, insignificance to the developement of the modern world.

and, about your comment on us randomly appearing out of thin air. evolution already told us how we came to be (high temperatures and radiation. it was even replicated in a lab.). now, what you believe in is simply adding god into the equation. think about it. us created out of thin air randomly, or us created out of thin air by a god. think man. both are almost as illogical as the other. think.

Pringleton...... Try to pray to Jesus CHrist for one month, and ask him to show you the truth. Be careful about things you say concerning god because in the end you will bow to him when he comes. If you don't believe it, try going to church. The truth is... We all will die one day, and what will you do when you stand in front of god? Its your choice, you don't have to be like the rest of these people and down god, why even discuss something you don't Believe in? And I believe that any man or woman who doesn't accept Jesus in there life will perish in the end(when they die), if anyone doesn't believe me that's fine, because I'm not your savior.

Wild child we get it..... You don't believe in god, your still pathetic with all the things you come up with.... Um..... Its funny how you Believe the bang theory.... How do you know its true? Was you actually there? The thing about god, is that he has proof, backed up on facts. How would scientist think to figure out how the world was made.... When they change there theories every few years. Sweet heart give it up.... Go to another forum and discuss something that will help you. Besides you don't Believe in god so let it go...

I used to believe in god, back when I was like 6 or 7, and i will never bow before god, if he exists I will face him but I will not bow down. He has caused too much suffering in this world, the only way I will ever think of worshipping him is if he lets me save everyone after death....hint hint god.

god is just a kid with an ant farm and we're the ants.

I believe that literally.

The ultimate god, the ultimate source of power in the universe from which we come is not the one messing with us all the time. The ultimate God is at the core of our being as well as the core of the universe.

I'm talking about the creature just above our consciousness who knows about us when we don't know about him. He can see us, and follow our movements, but we can't see him, not even imagine him.

But he's not god, he's just the kid with the ant farm.

sungirl, you don't get it. of course, i wasn't there to see the big bang. however, you weren't there to see god creat everything, either. so don't talk. now, insted of a book potentially written by a loony, we have factual PROOF, like RADIATION. read all of what i have written. ALL. because based on what your arguement, you obviously didn't bother reading all of it. i have almost DISPROVEN god with my arguement, yet you argue with pure dogma. UNPROVEN, DOGMA. how about you SHARE with us those "proofs" you talk about? and read MY FACTUAL proofs, that actually CAN be backed up by something OTHER than a 2000 year old book written by crazy loonies? try it, even if you come up with something, i can prove it to be falsified proof. the only reason god cannot be technically proven, is that you can always say something to work around it, like "god can disobey the laws of physics" or "humans cannot understand god's work", in which case, if i can't understand it, either can you or the followers of god, cuz we're all human. the only way for us to disprove god is to PROVE the big bang theory, OR evolution, whichever one. the existence of DINOSAURS should already be sufficient enough to disprove the bible. and it DOES. however, that doesn't stop the idiots from saying that GOD can still exist, does it?
sungirl, come up with REAL arguments, other than ones based on personal feelings or assumtions and hypothesis. you keep saying "what will happen once you die and face god?", when it cannot be backed up by ANY physical evidence that god even exists. fom that, it is easily acknowledgable that all you say is based on what you FEEL, what you WANT, and what others SAY.
when you conduct this debate with evidence and proper reasoning, i will be glad to prove you wrong, other than that, you might as well go read a book first and get your ground first.
now, something else to add. i always tell people this, that religious people are idiots. this can actually be proven. in a survey, it is found that the average iq of atheists and agnostics are higher than those of the religious. and im not talking just 1 or 2 points. china is a sure example. compared to the average iq of 100 of the highly religious america, china, one of the most non-religious countries you will ever find, has an average iq of 120. this can be applied. you see america? they've barely done anything in the past 50 years. china, without religion, WITH the iron fist, has pulled themselves up from what seemed to be like the dark ages, all the way up to near america's standards. if people were religious, this would not have happened, as they would "respect" the rights of people (which is say is overexaggerated), donate all their money to church, which is wasted on the uneducated and the disabled, who, chances are, will not have contributions to societly either way. if you're already developed, thats your choice to waste your money. it just means your country will barely develope. china just forgets those people. thats why they have become so strong is such a short amount of time. so, sungirl, think before arguing.

by the way, they don't change their theories. they only ADD to it, and it only ever proves their point more. you wanna see the big player in changing theories? look at your little religion.
the god of the old testament (dont complain ,it IS the work of "god"'s faithful followers) is supportive of the killing of one's kids, the ownership of women to men, and the killing of atheists and homosexuals (which is his own creation. did he make a mistake?)
so now, they made up a new god in the "new" testament, and got rid of those things. if you read the bible properly, you will see many more contradictions.
also, when they first invented god, they LITERALLY said that god was in the skies. so when man decided to look up, they changed it to ABOVE the skies. when we discovered space, they decided it to be INVISIBLE and UNTOUCHABLE. in this case, god has no mass or space. the only way for him to exist now is as a ENERGY. which means he can be found in a lump of coal. it means we can PHYSICALLY CONVERT god into fuel. thats a nice ending to it, huh?
so, sungirl, read all of what i wrote in that last few days, THEN try and argue. YOu tell ME who's changing the story. scientists ADD to the story, nothing is changed. they ADD more, because more proof is popping up, SUPPORTING the big bang theory. you theists CHANGE your story, because more proof pops up AGAINST god. so who's the one playing dirty, who are the idiots, and WHO are the ones that has NO PROOF?!
btw, you need to work on your english. you made some SERIOUS grammatrical mistakes.

pooltoy, i will not argue with that. that is not my intention. the god you are looking at, even though defies the laws of physics, is nowhere near as obsurd as a god that ANSWERS to prayers.
now, to the theists: if all the religious claims in the world are true, there would be over a thousand gods by now. that defies all of the religions i know of. why would a supreme being, even BOTHER to listen to one's prayers? it's not like he will grant them. there are people who pray to be able to harm others. will god grant that? and besides, god has a little "devine plan". im sure that devine plan doesn't involve every single one of your prayers. ever notice that many of your prayers dont' get answered, and the ones that do are by luck? so what then? many theists will just say, "oo its god's will". well, since hes not gunna answer your prayers, why not just fucked the praying and jsut get to the "god's will"?
and all of the above is based on the false hypothesis that GOD exists. if you read my earlier posts, you will notice that it is near impossible to be a god, and that the only reason its not completely impossible is because of all theextra bullshit you people add in.

@ WildChildTDC

"now, i have another to add. you say we SHOULDN'T interfere with their beliefs,because they never do the same to us? well, not only does the above prove taht wrong, theres also something else. the CRUSADES. they decided that anyone who didn't believe in god was evil and deserve to be punished, and murdered them all in inhuman ways. not only does this prove my point, but does this not go against their own religion?"

So going on this reasoning, children of murderers and rapists are just as guilty as their murdering parents? My granddad went to prison for theft. Should I be chucked in the slammer as well? Does this then make all parents guilty? Obviously not, so why then tar all the religious people with the same brush?

Personally I don't really believe in god. But fuck me if I'll stand around and let ignorant posters like the above rap off their poorly-informed misconceptions without being challenged.

I'll say it once again: People should be free to follow whatever religion they choose. Places where this isn't allowed are usually fascist regimes.

I also notice with just a little bit of mirth how it's Christianity that gets ripped on. Why not mention the Jews fellas? Scared of being labeled a bigot?

How do you know your religion is true, were you actually there? And every religion all think they are right and how can every single one of them know the exact truth? I know the science theories may not all be perfectly true but it sounds the most logical to me, and I think it's the one that got most the answers right even if it didn't get them all.

Wow you posted a lot, shame I haven't been able to read it all, I havent had much internet in the last few days. BUt from what I have read from your arguement I agree with fully. Hopefully I can fully read all your stuff on Thursday, when I get internet for as long as I want again.

no, i never said that. i am merely proving her wrong when she said that religion nevered done anything to us. and like i have explained many days ago, religion STILL interferes, and still do things to us, and abuse our rights as atheists.
they also try to convert us atheists. that does not justify us interefering, but trying to spread knowledge with proof isn't a crime.
now, go look up, and you will find things that they have DONE to us, and DO to us RIGHT NOW. ill copy it for you, in fact.
"
okay, this is directed towards atheists, and theists. this part is for those who think that we should not attack religion, simply because it doesn't interfere with us. i have to respectfulyl disagree.
religion, especially christianity, limits our very RIGHT as atheists. it was not recorded, however, in an interview, george bush stated himself that he did not consider atheists to be patriotic or citizens of america. while over 95 percent of the population would vote for homosexuals or blacks, only 49% would vote for atheists as president.
in this world, especially in america, atheists are muchly hated, and are treated as badly as blacks 50 years ago. Many educated personnel on the american counsil had to fake their beliefs in order to be elected. Considering america was founded by men stating that religion should never mix with politics, this country has become a disgrace to it's founders.
from the crusades to modern day racism against atheism, i can honestly say, religion has always been, and always will be, for as long as it exists, an interferance to the proper education of science, and according to your statement, your life. you may not notice it, but the older you get, the more you realise, how much religion has taken away from you. even though religion was taken out of the school education system, there are always presentations on the subject from many churches, and the kids ranging from kindergarden to high school are forced to listen. those kids know only to obey the teacher. they don't even know about religious freedom. to them, they have no choice. it is the same as forcing a child to become christian/morman/whatever religion.
i have experienced this myself when i was 8. i did not know i could leave at any time. and at the time, if a student tried to leave, the teacher would not allow it. i remember the great impact the bible they gave us and the words they gave us had on us. children that young, who does not even have the generally accepted, by science, and by the education system, the big bang theory, already being fed religion. why are children learning a hypothesis, or even a lie, before learning what is accepted by the scientific and educational community as a fact and truth?
those children are easily convinced and manipulated through complicated and hard-to-comprehend words of religion, and, due to human curiosity, every child is bound to have thought of the question, "how did we exist."
most parents would simply say, "you are too young", and leave the kids wondering. how grateful would the kids be, after all that time, to learn what they thought was "the truth"? they wouldn't even understand what a religion was. they'd think that it is the truth. once a child learns something, it is very difficult to change their minds. this is how religion is spread. once you tell a child, who wants nothing more than happiness, and to have fun, that by believing in god they will be forevermore happy, how will you ever convince them otherwise?
how is it that religion has ever been removed from schools? all of what i have written clearly shows, even though it is out of the official system, it is still part of the unofficial one, as a "school event". as long as the perverted hypothesis of creationism is in existence, kids will always be brain-washed by it. nowadays, you hear creationism everywhere. it is impossible to keep a child away from that. this is why, as atheists, we are always affected by religion, creationists, and theists.
"


i realise that you are atheist. im not arguing with you, i am merely proving that my intention is not revenge. they KILLED us for not believing. we just want them to look at some logic. i have no intention of murdering them because theior ancestors did the same. freedom of speech is a right, no? what they have done to atheists in the past is simply another way i am against religion, and not in the sense of revenge. its because religion has caused countless wars and deaths. i will repeat, i said what you have quoted of me, only to prove to sungirl that religion DOES interfere with us. if she had read what i quoted above (the big long one), she would not have even said it. again, i don't want to argue you, and i don't fee like there is anything to argue about. im just showing you what my intention was, trying to avoid a misunderstanding.
like you said, i don't think a child should be punished for the parent's doing. that is absurd and wrong. however, going slightly off topic, that IS what theists have done to atheists in the past. again, i said the last sentence just to show you what religion has done, not using it as an excuse of revenge. besides, arguement and persuasion for understanding of provable facts isn't revenge.

and just to make it clear, i dun wanna argue ;D, and i see nothing to argue about. =)i really don't wanna cause a misunderstanding >.

thanks =D
debates are my forte, and ignorance just pisses me off xD
i write more than i usually would, when the person arguing comes up with such weak arguements, complete dogma, that i actually get a bit pissed off and annoyed by them. if they can at least include a tiny bit of logic, i would gladly have a NICE debate. when i saw sungirl's arguements, i almost fainted out of disappointment....
im sure i have said this already, but this book is a must, for an atheist. "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. he contradicts all of the major christian arguements for god (which is pretty much the same for other religions). i was about to put the link for the ebook(the real book is $20 CAN at chapters), but the page was deleted for copyright violations. i have the ebook, and i also bought the book. i must say, if a christian can read the book completely, and fully understand every word, and still does not change religion, then he/she is truely hopeless and narrow minded.
besides, im still in school and this is seriously improving my writing skills =D, but of course, this is only a "bonus". if richard dawkins can't do the job with his book, then i will write one myself once i've settled down. =)

oooh man. i just reconized the name. you were the guy i decided to stage an act with for some fun and swore at =)
well, sorry. =)
xD it was fun thou....:P

btw the apology was towards PooLTOY. i forgot to press reply XD

Oh yeah I remember that, when Pooltoy said he believed in Zeus and those gods and you replied "OH REALLY? THEN GO CLIMB THAT f**kING MOUNTAIN ZEUS LIVES ON, b**ch."

Anyway your posts are very long, proves a point and has like all the info there but if someone doesn't want to listen to logic then they wulda gave up reading them on like the first paragraph.

Though I do agree with like everything you posted there.

yes, i actually assumed that they would stop reading at the first paragraph. but the thing is, it actually makes the debate end much earlier. if you only give them a piece of the information, they will keep questioning your answers. if you add more after, they will add dogma, and say things like "your theory changed" or whatever. if i write it all in one go, they have nothing left to say. if they do, it means they did not read it, which goes to be my advantage, since they did not even read my arguement, making the entire debate pointless. so, its pretty much a win-win situation, especially if you've got your ground. in other debates, i read EVERYTHING they have to say, and prove every arguement they come up with to be full of fallacies. over the summer, i decided that this religion bullshit HAS to end. it is even slowing down the economy in a way. the earlier religion ends, the better. when religion ends, technology will develop much faster, because our curiosity will be back. or, if you take the survey done on the intellegence of theists, maybe not so much ;P

made a grammar mistake on the last sentence

or, if you take INTO ACCOUNT the survey done on the intellegence of theists, maybe not so much ;P

Well it seems to have worked. No ones questioning you anymore.On online debates I like it long, though only if the other side has a good argument and isn't very stubborn.

yo pringletot2
theres another dumbass that need our help.
http://isitnormal.com/story/5873/#new-comment-form
come along and enjoy the conversion =D

come on, I cant lose to V

If your religious post here and maybe you can change our minds. better have a good ass argument

If your atheist then post here to change the theists mind

if you dont care post here to say you dont care

If you want a flamewar post here and we can start one

If your a douche post here so we can all call you a douche

...in the beginning it says that God created the heavens and the earth. and He created a man. He then created a woman to help the man, to be his partner. He told them not to eat of the tree in the middle of the garden..yadda yadda, read about it...100s of years later, the world fell into sin and God said he would destroy everything he created...Noah then, read about it...so when the floods subsided, God made a covenant with man and said that He wouldn't destroy the world with water again...anyways, so later, God sends his chosen son, one who was blameless, to pay for our sins. therefore, they are paid for, and we are saved. the purpose of life is Jesus. We live for Jesus because he died to save us from going to Hell. And by not accepting God's free gift, a ticket to heaven, you take the other path. Life, now, is about living in Christ, who will make sure you get into Heaven and will change you into a better person, when this happens, your so consumed in Jesus' love for you that you don't need anything else. It's nice =]

Right. So there is no santa claus. I mean honestly, who can fly around the world in a night right? I mean, an invisible man that can hear everyone murmuring at the same time, THAT I can understand perfectly.

Well Santa is jsut about as believable as God, really, why do people think your retarded for believing in fairies and pixies and then tehy go to church to worship some guy that waved his hands and we all suddenly appeared from his magical hat.

LOL I agree with you. Santa is more believable than God.

You call the people in the churches fools, as if none of them have ever pondered your ideas about religion. Your line of reasoning really is quite basic... i.e., "the world is not perfect, therefore there is no God."

The world is not a simple place, in case you haven't noticed.

Why isn't it possible that God and Jesus are real, exactly as the Bible says they are? The Old Testament God isn't discreet about his anger or his vengeful behavior...he kills people outright! He never claims to be a universal benefactor! In the New Testament Jesus introduces unconditional love and forgiveness; it really is quite a paradox.

I decided to ditch the reasoning you outlined above and become a humble worshipper of Christ, and not because I want to be better than you or rest on my laurels or anything like that. I do so because the way this mysterious and awesome world we inhabit works is not as simple as a basic 'if/then' statement.

I know that the world is not simple, but you said that you became a humble worshiper of christ because the world is not simple. How did that logic make sense? you said my logic goes "the world is not perfect so therefore there is no god" then you state "the world is complicated so there must be a god". One I do not say god can not exist because the world is not perfect there is a lot more to it than that. I won't bother going into full reasoning now, if you respond to this one I'll then explain some more later

Agree.

god didnt create those problems
people did,
and if that paragraph is really what you belive then
why waste your time with life

god created, people ruined it. the person above is right.

hello hello
i see you are very upset about our planetary situation
there is much i could say but i will summarize it like this

the idea of God is real. but it is not correct as it is portrayed by most
God is the Source of All Things. and we (you, me, all life-forms) are fragments of this "God" idea.
therefore, you are a fragment of God.

what happens is, FREE WILL IS INVIOLATE. and that is universally accepted.

but don't worry. keep on knowing what's right, and keep on being absolutely critical of our current planetary situation.
very soon, our entire civilization will be re-structured, and humans lie you will be the ones showing the others what is necessary for achieving balance.

all this is the absolute nature of the Creation.

who cares?

I kind of agree, but what if there is really a god and we all go to hell?

hell man, read my posts, i've written pages arguing against that once sentence of urs

one sentence*

I try to consider and respect other's views on religion and the existence of 'god', but often this leads me to finding that there are many flaws in religions, some are very biased, hypocritical, and/or non-sensical. I'm sorry but I do
not initially believe there is a god. If there is the God as in Ge of the Holy Bible, then he is a wrathful prick. 'Do not muder'?! Fair enough, but God drowned all those people and animals in the Red Sea. Yes, this was more or less with justice, but he still killed them, so he's just as bad. And why was oh-so perfect Man made the dominant species and allowed to kill the other animals? Why were there only two? A man and a woman? Why, was the human race called that of MAN with men always more powerful?!
Okay this is off-track a bit, but, if God wanted a good Earth... He did not create 'Man' in such a perfect image.

Look what has happened.

dang, you got some serious feedback on this one!

most people blame the devil for the mess the world is in. i don't believe in the devil, but i don't blame god. i blame man.

god did not make us a bunch of robots. he pretty much sits back and lets us do our own thing, and face the consequences of our actions. why don't he step in and set things right? well, i don't know, but someday he might, and a lot of people won't like it if and when he does. maybe he is just waiting to see if we will ever work out our own stupid problems. who knows?

maybe he is too busy running the rest of the universe to worry about what is going on down here on this flyspeck of a planet. maybe it is up to us to work out our own differences and problems, instead of blaming him for everything, like he is some divine scapegoat. (that is what a lot of you use the devil for too. like blame anyone except yourself when you fuck up, right?)

I'm actually a born-again Pastafarian. I figured after jail I'd stick to that since it made about as much sense and had about asmuch proof of its existence as any other religion. May the Flying Spaghetti Monster's noodly appendages touch you and his sauce rain down upon thee.

ok guys have you ever thought that maybe it is a mix of science and religion. maybe aliens visited us(yes i believe intelligent life forms other than humans could have visited the earth) and the only way the ancient people could have described them is as gods. but like the pyramids the stones were cut so perfectly that a piece of paper could not fit in between the stones. there is a lot of evidence for this but it is still only a theory like atheism or Christianity. We truly have no idea how earth was created and even if we do figure it out i dont think everyone will believe even with all the evidence presented. most people dont appreciate me calling their gods aliens either

What makes you think this is the only planet god created.

he dosnt want to change everybodys lives

if you "know" god nothing happens really. people of god are killing people who believe in something different in te name of god. What the hell happened to "thou shalt not kill"?

God gave us freewill which is why you have the freedom to choose to not love Him. You should be thankful for that. He is a loving God and wants us to WANT to love Him. I pray that you will come to that place in your life. The fact that you are even thinking about it this much means you want to love Him. He will speak to you. I pray that your heart will be open to listening. When you hear you will be wanting to share it with everyone you see. I love you and hope to see you in heaven. :)

god doesn't make people kill,he doesnt make them wipe their ass with hundred dollar bills while so many others are starving their ass off....i am not a full out religous person but i do believe in god and i do believe this ........god puts us in though situations to test us unfortunately we have some how unconsciously rewired ourselves with greed, self achievement and individualism some would say that that is the foundation of Americas free market while others would argue that these are the fuck tards ceo's that made millions where as real hard working middle class Americans lost their jobs

I completely agree with the original post. Either there is no god, or if there is, I have no reason to worship or love him. I lost my faith a few years ago when my mother suddenly passed away, not even 40 years old. I mean, if there is a god, why would he just take her like that? Doesn't sound very "godly" to me. I think it's all a load of crap

That's some deep philosophy...

Who are you to make such sweeping statements about the nature of human existence? If such base pursuits are all that amount to anything in your eyes, then so shall it be for you. Did it ever occur to you that the ways and means of a supreme entity might be beyond your/my comprehension? Why is there famine in the world today? Why was there was seven years of famine in Genesis? It takes humility to find faith. It takes nothing but genitals to reproduce, and a little whiskey to get drunk! :-P

Albert Einstein answered the question about whether or not God is real and evil. I hope you can see the video.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/video/video.php?v=155315264765&ref=nf

well in the bible god gave the world to adam and eve, then we f***ed it up so he sent jesus and then when jesus died and went to heaven he gave the world back to human kind..... he gave us everything we need to live happy and have enough food, but us as humanswe just F*** it all up... not god fault, its ours but people once again like to blame things on other people

If the world were constantly in peace, wouldn't that mean that God was controlling us? God allowed us to have free will. He isn't the one who created STDs or famine or greed. Humanity created that. God is here for us to help us through the tough times. This is why bad things happen to good people. It's to test their faith. And if their faith withstands the evil and temptations then they'll be rewarded with a miraculous after life living with him in heaven. I don't know what has happened to you in life, but you can't blame God for these things. God gave us life, God gave us choice. He doesn't control things. So if your mom died of cancer, it's because Humans created cigarettes or if your dad went to jail, it's because it was his choice to make bad decisions. The good thing is, throughout all of the bad things that happen to you, God will be there and he'll look after to you.