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Christians, do you believe that people who reject Jesus, but who are very kind to others, and generally try to behave decent and morally, will burn in Hell for all eternity?
| Yes | 14 | |
| No | 26 | |
| Other (please explain) | 12 |
If you don't believe in God then why would you worry about the existence of hell or the opinion of believers?
Fear. While I indeed don't believe in God and reject Jesus, I can nonethelesss never be 100% certain I'm corrrect. And because I know that death is inevitable, I'm very, very afraid about my fate.
On the other hand, there are several religions out there that teach that disbelievers will go to Hell, so there's always SOMETHING to fear...
Sure. I don't believe in the Christian God (or any God) for the same reason that you (presumably) don't believe in Zeus, Odin, etc.
The reason I reject Jesus is because he, according to the Bible, not only said good, loving things, but quite some objectionable things as well. One example of this is Matthew 10:37.
Above all things, I believe in being a good person.
Do you really think I will go to Hell forever?
"I don't believe in the Christian God (or any God) for the same reason that you (presumably) don't believe in Zeus, Odin, etc." What reason might that be?
"Above all things, I believe in being a good person." And how do you define being a good person?
"What reason might that be?"
Ask yourself why you don't believe in Zeus, Odin, etc. and you've got the answer. For me perrsonally, its the total lack of evidence.
"how do you define being a good person?"
I try to be a good person by treating others the way I'd like to be treated. Are you saying that you can't be a good person if you're not a Christian?
It might just be curiosity. It might be because they don't actually believe what they claim to believe, and fear that there is truth in what others say, leading them to question what would happen to them if the other's truths were correct. It might also be that they want to debate with someone. It's likely just curiosity, though.
Unless youre an evil person in general. But if youre a good person and whatever you believe in doesnt cause harm you wont.
I personally don't. I know that is not a traditional Christian view, but I just have a hard time seeing how a God that is the most loving, caring, understanding, and forgiving being in existence could eternally torture someone who was a good person in life despite not believing for whatever reason. Even as someone who considers myself a Christian, even I have a hard time understanding certain things about Christianity and religion in general, and can see why people are skeptical about it. I can also see how having it shoved down your throat or being treated poorly by Christians who aren't very Christ-like in their behavior could drive you away from it. I really think that most likely, doing the right thing and being a genuinely good person in life is what is most important. That is just my personal opinion.
I think you have a hard time understanding because you don't understand the nature of Hell. God does not torture people who go to Hell. In the end, God will create a new world. In this world, everyone will be in total communion with God. Those who do not want to be in total communion with God would only cause problems for the new world, and forcing people to be in total communion with him is not something God wants to do. So, those who do not want to be part of the new world are not made to. They, instead, get to stay in the old world, which is to be forgotten by God. Since God will have left, the devil will have moved in, since, where God is not, there is the devil. So, the earth will become part of Hell, in complete separation from God. God is not torturing people by allowing them to choose to be separated from him. They are choosing to separate themselves from God. Since they don't want to be in total communion with God, their only option is the complete separation from God that will be the case after the end of time, and is currently the case in the fires prepared for the devil and his angels that is Hell.
So, the person who is a "good person in life" is not a good person in spirit, and through their own choice they detach themself from God, choosing the alternative: Hell. Doing the right thing and being a good person in life are part of being a good person in spirit.
Well I hope god has the perspective of how someone would be at least agnostic on the issue.
i worship the one true god our savior elvis presley
you only go to hell if you step on my blue suede shoes
According to my religion, christians are the ones that will go to hell.
I'm not a christian but its pretty clear the bible says if you reject Jesus you aint getting into heaven.
If you reject Jesus, then yes, since only those who believe in Jesus can go to heaven. For those who simply don't know about Jesus, it as about whether or not they would be willing to believe in Jesus.
Ive come to the conclusion that if the god of abraham does exist and jesus was his son that he is an asshole. But that alone doesnt mean he doesn't exist. The god the church preaches about being all loving and all forgiving is just a feel good narrative. The bible shows god is very jealous and wants submission and to be feared.
With all the suffering in the world if there is a god hes a cruel god. No way around it.
I just feel like the creator of earth and humanity, wouldn’t be a bigot. We’re forced to praise him or damned to hell? Or people who practice other peaceful religions aren’t worthy of paradise?
I’m pretty sure Chunk makes these posts so he can argue with himself.
If you really think about it that doesnt really make sense. Thats the church narrative you've heard all your life making you attribute god with righteousness. For there to be a creator it doesnt mean you have to be nice.
That throws me off about atheists they say "there cant be a creator because of suffering". But there definitely can be.
I haven't posted on here in a long time. My last post was, "Is it normal i feel suicide awareness week is patronizing to those wanting suicide?"
I don't think you understand what Hell is. Hell is complete detachment from God. In the end, there will only be total communion with God and complete detachment from God. If you choose to live in complete detachment from God, you choose to live in Hell. If you reject Jesus, you wouldn't want to live in total communion with God, and only those who want to will be capable of joining God in the end.
No humans are "worthy of paradise", since God himself deemed humans unworthy of the Paradise, commonly known as the Garden of Eden. Those who worship other religions may or may not want to be in total communion with God, but those who reject Christianity in favor of false religions clearly do not want to live in total communion with God.
You are correct. The people who preach all being saved and other assorted sugar-coating heresies are just that: heretics. They believe in a false narrative of a god who is more forgiving than the true God, and a god who is impossibly kind.
However, you do seem to believe in a heresy yourself, about creation. The world without the possibility of evil would be an imperfect one. God himself said that Adam and Eve would suffer upon leaving Paradise, and they did, since they were separate from God. You seem to be suggesting, however, that the heretical idea that God created evil is true.
According to the Summa Theologiae:
Augustine says (QQ. 83, qu. 21), that, "God is not the author of evil because He is not the cause of tending to not-being."
[e] I answer that, As appears from what was said [434] (A [1]), the evil which consists in the defect of action is always caused by the defect of the agent. But in God there is no defect, but the highest perfection, as was shown above ([435] Q [4], A [1]). Hence, the evil which consists in defect of action, or which is caused by defect of the agent, is not reduced to God as to its cause.
[f] But the evil which consists in the corruption of some things is reduced to God as the cause. And this appears as regards both natural things and voluntary things. For it was said [436] (A [1]) that some agent inasmuch as it produces by its power a form to which follows corruption and defect, causes by its power that corruption and defect. But it is manifest that the form which God chiefly intends in things created is the good of the order of the universe. Now, the order of the universe requires, as was said above ([437] Q [22], A [2], ad 2; [438] Q [48], A [2]), that there should be some things that can, and do sometimes, fail. And thus God, by causing in things the good of the order of the universe, consequently and as it were by accident, causes the corruptions of things, according to 1 2:6: "The Lord killeth and maketh alive." But when we read that "God hath not made death" (Wis. 1:13), the sense is that God does not will death for its own sake. Nevertheless the order of justice belongs to the order of the universe; and this requires that penalty should be dealt out to sinners. And so God is the author of the evil which is penalty, but not of the evil which is fault,
But even before sin god created predators and prey right? There was already animals suffering to feed other animals. That is cruelty that god created even before Adam ate the apple.
I believe this answers your question (from the Summa Theologiae):
Equality of justice has its place in retribution, since equal rewards or punishments are due to equal merit or demerit. But this does not apply to things as at first instituted. For just as an architect, without injustice, places stones of the same kind in different parts of a building, not on account of any antecedent difference in the stones, but with a view to securing that perfection of the entire building, which could not be obtained except by the different positions of the stones; even so, God from the beginning, to secure perfection in the universe, has set therein creatures of various and unequal natures, according to His wisdom, and without injustice, since no diversity of merit is presupposed.
But in the constitution of things there is no inequality of parts through any preceding inequality, either of merits or of the disposition of the matter; but inequality comes from the perfection of the whole. This appears also in works done by art; for the roof of a house differs from the foundation, not because it is made of other material; but in order that the house may be made perfect of different parts, the artificer seeks different material; indeed, he would make such material if he could.
If you reject Jesus, you don't go to heaven. The Bible clearly states that. Most people don't go to heaven, for "narrovv is the gate, and ſtrait is the vvay that leadeth to heaven, and fevv there are that find it!" That verse leads us to believe that many Christians aren't even going to heaven. The Bible says multiple times in it that those who believe and are baptized go to heaven. We don't know about whether or not those who don't believe go to heaven, but we do know that those who reject Jesus have actively made the choice to not go to heaven.
"If you reject Jesus, you don't go to heaven. The Bible clearly states that."
And who says that the Bible is right about that? Yeah, the Bible. Nice circular "logic" you've got there.
"ſtrait is the vvay that leadeth to heaven, and fevv there are that find it!"
Why would God have made it like that, especially if he wants everyone to go to Heaven, like 1 Timothy 2:4 says?
"We don't know about whether or not those who don't believe go to heaven, but we do know that those who reject Jesus have actively made the choice to not go to heaven."
Accepting Jesus is more important than believing in Christianity? That's an odd thing for a Christian to say, certainly one as fucked up as you. Also, how the fuck is rejecting Jesus "choosintg" Hell? How retarded are you?
Finally, have you sold all your possessions, to give to the poor, like suggested in Matthew 19:21? I don't fucking think so. I could ask you more questions like that BTW...
Well, assuming there is a Heaven, then the Bible is certainly correct about that.
God does want all to go to Heaven, but few choose to be good enough to be worthy of going to Heaven.
Believing in Christianity requires you to accept Jesus, so I don't know what your point is here. To not accept Jesus but believe in God is Judaism, which will not lead you to Heaven.
By rejecting Jesus, you are claiming him to be false and blaspheming the name of the Lord. How is one who actively insults Jesus to get into Heaven through Jesus? One doesn't. One chooses not to go to Heaven, through one's blasphemy. When rejecting Jesus, one rejects the validity of he who can get people into Heaven, and when judgement comes, Jesus will see that they have rejected and insulted him all their life, and he will see that they are not fit for Heaven.
I don't have much to sell to begin with.
Do you believe that a sadistic serial killer who converts to Christianity shortly before death will go to Heaven?
To be fair, looks like it's a sadistic serial killer in charge of the whole thing so who knows?
That's my opinion anyway.
As life is pretty random, it LOOKS like there is absolutely no-one in charge.
The riddle of Epicurus is a good one, I think.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Your other post doesn't anymore (404: Page not found), so I cannot see your last response. It's weird. Since I can see this post, I know you haven't blocked me, and you somehow responded after the post disappeared, since I checked it previously today (I like religious discussion). It's possible you've gotten shadow banned, or I've gotten shadow banned. I don't know, though. It's also possible that your post got reported and removed.
Yes, that is weird (yay, we actually agree on something). I haven't got a clue why this is. And while I indeed haven't blocked you, I AM growing really tired of our little discussion. It's a goddamn waste of time and growing really fucking repetitive...
All that it boils down to, is that you're trying to blackmail me into choosing to GENUINELY believe in your particular fucking God, which is utterly impossible and unreasonable. Can you choose to GENUINELY believe in Santa Claus, for example? Even if I WERE to accept Christianity, it would 100% be based on fear of Hell. It wouldn't be genuine at all, as I honestly think your Bronze Age-fairy tale is absurd, immoral and blatantly incorrect on many, many points. Since you're an extremely brainwashed, deluded and downright evil piece of fundamentalist dogshit, you simply don't WANT to understand that.
Also, you have some utterly vile and laughably idiotic opinions. You think that good, loving people who've passed away and didn't accept Jesus during their lifetimes (and this would include people I knew and still love dearly) are burning in Hell for all eternity, and you even have the goddamn nerve to claim that they hsve, somehow, "chosen" that. Way beyond disgusting! You also think that masturbation, which is just a bit of healthy, harmless fun, is somehow evil. How retarded is that?
Maybe you haven't reslly chosen to believe any of these things (you're obviously branwashed and illogical as fuck), but you could've nonetheless applied some basic logic, compassion and humanity, instead of shutting down all your reasoning faculties and mindlessly parrot the Bible, like the goddamn zombie you are. If Heaven is full of people like you, I don't even WANT to go there. You don't have to be a Christian to be a good loving, person, and I will NEVER believe that such people deserve to burn forever.
Fuck you.
Four more things that I'd forgotten to mention:
1. You want me to accept the "grace of God" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to be), so I can THEN believe in your particular psychotic God. However, it's perfectly obvious that you need to believe in the FIRST place before you try to do something like that. You've got it all backwards.
2. When I said that I need a good reason to accept this "grace of God", you said that I would see it if I did so. Well, as a Christian (and a batshit insane one at that), you must've accepted it, and so should be able to tell me, but apparently you aren't.
3. I don't believe you deserve burn in Hell for all eternity, whereas you DO believe that the other way around. Who's got the upper hand on charity now, motherfucker?
4. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13, love is more important than faith. This clearly implies that it's more important to be a good human being than to believe in Jesus.
Again, fuck you, trying to blackmail me with your unreasonableness and mental gymnastics.
You do not need to believe first; you need to try to and want to believe. Once you've done that, then you can accept the grace of God, and then believe.
As you can see by how this discussion has gone, we can see that you would have rejected all of it anyway, since you cannot see it.
Rejecting reality does not make you more charitable. It only makes you ignorant. Hell is real, and it is what the Bible claims it to be. Whether you like that or not does not matter, since you have no power to change it.
Charity is more important than faith and hope, but they are all important to get to Heaven. Lack of any of those is a mortal sin.
I'm not trying to blackmail you; I am only stating the truth. Don't use a word that you don't know the definition of. I am not trying to defame you in any way.
For someone who claims to not like this conversation, you seem to really want to continue it.
I am a Protestant, I don't love the creepy kids stuff and the Jihad stuff...
There's an eternal place of atomic activity/void/entity/the-within-and-without/harmony/source of life/God, that all existence sprang from. Free from racism, corruption, greed, power mongering, abuse, intoxication.. name it!
This is the place that all existence struggling to get back to.
I'm an antitheist as well but I don't agree with this. While the bulk of the stories surrounding him still certainly wouldn't be true, there's actually some credible supportive data that Jesus was a real man, which is more than can be said about most of the Bible.
The thing is, if Jesus existed, he was also almost certainly a particularly talented street magician (there were actually heaps of them back them) and antitheist himself, dedicating his entire life to trying to clean up a religion as well as he could manage.
Think about it. "Talking snakes aren't real, a great deal of this is clearly written by xenophobic misogynists, and we can be good people without it, better people in fact," simply wasn't going to cut it in those days; it still doesn't work in 2021. Then it was an instant death sentence.
But, "Trust me. I'm God's son. Check out these sweet magic tricks. I have authority to tell you Dad wants us to tone some of this shit down," that worked. Honestly, if I'd lived then it's probably literally exactly what my life plan would have been and I'd have ultimately suffered his purported fate, just as thousands besides him did.
I'd have died sickened at the thought that my name would now be worshipped but comforted at the thought that the next few thousand years might be a little better before people eventually dropped it altogether.