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Personally, I don't. Although Hitler's crimes were enormous, they were nonetheless finite. I don't think finite crimes warrant an infinite punishment. Perhaps he deserves to burn for a certain period, but forever? Nah. I think literally nobody deserves that. What do you think?
| Other (please explain) | 15 | |
| Yes | 24 | |
| No | 23 |
If I believed in hell he sure as fuck should be there. I don't believe in hell though and I doubt there's any kind of afterlife so I voted no.
I think the concept of heaven and hell were invented as a form of control. There's no evidence for either so the idea had to come from somewhere. I think he did what he did and he's either dead (us history honors teacher said by cyanide and gun shot, was before DNA though so who knows) or he's hidden or hiding away somewhere
I'm under the belief that nothing you do in the moral world is worth buring forever in hell. As in eventually you will work you way into the soul shredder and just become nothing. Instead of the eternal suffering of hell.
Aren’t you an American ? You can’t even come to comprehend what war does to people because you’ve never had to face it in your neighborhood
Yes but nothing you do on earth is worth eternal suffering. Not saying he isnt there now. It's just in comparison doing something for a brief amount of existance isnt worth an eternity of suffering. He could be burning for a thousand years and that would be fine.
How do you feel about prison, life sentences, and death penalty? Rest of your life may as well be forever
"Rest of your life may as well be forever"
I'm not sure how you can make that comparison. Your life is finite, forever is... well, forever. Infinite.
I support both. Which ever people choose. One is sudden and just gets it over with. The other is the real bastard in suffering of prolonging your life in a box for the rest of your existance. You can pawn over one being worse than the other, either way your life of freedom is over. In that way it's the same.
I don't believe in hell but, hypothetically speaking, if there is a hell then I don't think that anybody deserves to be there for all eternity.
I hope not. I don't want anyone to be in hell, even the most evil of people.
I see what you mean about burning for eternity. Ive had that same thought before does anyone truly deserve to be in flames for eternity? Idk you gotta be a pretty bad bastard to deserve that
This is probably out of context but if Hitlers grave was found I'm pretty sure people would start desecrating it.
It's human nature to hope that there is some sort of cosmic justice that will deal with the horrible things that people do to each other in this life.
There's no evidence of that, though.
In fact, there is no explicit mention of a place of eternal torment for evil-doers in the Old Testament. Christian theologians do their usual song and dance to try to explain why God apparently forgot to mention this to any of the Jewish prophets, but the fact is that the concepts of purgatory and hell were created by early Christians based on a few passages in the New Testament.
Jesus is only quoted as mentioning hades once, and the meaning of that passage is open to interpretation. Again, one would think that he would have explicitly referred to the risk of eternal torture for those who didn't behave as he thought they should if that was a real risk.
Hell is mentioned in Revelation, but that was written around 100 AD, and the author was clearly a whack-job.
That's because the Jews didn't have Hell. It is only through Jesus's resurrection that anyone is able to enter Hell. Jews had Sheol, where all souls went, no matter how good or evil. However, since Jesus sent the souls in Sheol out of Sheol through his resurrection, some went to Heaven, and many went to Hell.
Matthew 25:41 says, "Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels." That's a direct reference to Hell. After, all, that's what Hell is. Eternal existence alongside the devil and the demons, separated from God. Matthew 25:46 then goes on to say that those who go to Hell are there for all eternity: "And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."
"It is only through Jesus's resurrection that anyone is able to enter Hell."
How nice of him.
Sheol was no better than Hell for most people, and for those whom Sheol was better for, they are in Heaven.
We are told what Sheol is. It's a place forgotten by God (like Hell). You can tell this because it is described as a "place of darkness," and Jesus is the light. If Jesus is not there, God is not there, either, since they are one. The dead in both Hell and Sheol have no power (except for the saints that mentioned in Job 5:1, who presumably went to Heaven). The dead in both Hell and Sheol have no ability to change their fates, and no ability to learn anything else about the world. The only real difference is that the people in Hell are with the Devil, who is also to be made powerless on the last day.
Judaism as a religion does not have a hell where people can go. It has one place people go called Sheol. Jesus died for all the sins of all the human beings, and those who were in Sheol left, because if they did not, Jesus would not have died for the sins of all. Jesus opened the two different ways people can go. They can either go to Heaven, or they can go to Hell. Before Jesus, you couldn't go to either, just Sheol. This is because Hell was the place where God banished the devil; dead humans went to Sheol. Heaven was where God lived, but dead humans didn't go there; they went to Sheol. Since Jesus died for everyone's sins, Sheol was emptied, and the people were judged based on the choices they made in life. They were then to either spend eternity with God or eternity with the devil. Those who did not want to spend eternity with God went to the devil.
And I want you to stop pretending you know things about religions that you don't know anything about. It seems that neither of us will be getting what we wish, today, will we?
You ask for evidence on a place that its mere existance is a philosophical debate on if there is weight to out actions after death.
There will never be an answer for its non exsistance nor existance. It's a fallacy to debate on a place that might not exist or completely exist since you dont know until you die. Honestly if the threat of being burned forever is what's keeping you from being an asshole I'll take it as a reason not to be an asshole. Just leads to less asshole behavior in the long term.
I would love for hell not to be eternal - in much the same way as I would love it if climate change were not real.
What do you make of this description of hell in Mark 9:48 :
"their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched"?
Does this sound like a temporary situation to you, or do you know of another credible interpretation?
I'm an atheist, but I'm generally kind to people. Do you think that's enough?
Why ask me, as if hell and heaven and the cosmos were mine to dictate?
My intel broadly comes from the gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the Bible. They don't take long to read. Read them and decide what they must mean. If you're sincerely looking for answers and not trying to trip me up or start a row, come back to me and we can discuss it.
I asked you because I was genuinely curious as to what you, as a Christian, would say. I can assure you I AM sincerely looking for answers and not trying to trip you up or start a row.
As I don't wanna go to Hell, I honestly wish I could believe. The gospels (and the whole Bible, really) make it practically imposssible for me, though. Jesus appears not to be so awesome as he's often made out to be.
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/03/50-reasons-to-be-ashamed-and-not-a-fan-of-jesus/
What do you think I should do?
I agree with Grunewald; you really should stop listening to the people who don't know what they're talking about. Really, these people whom you listen to are providing you with false information. They are not helping you believe at all, and despite your claims that you want to believe, you keep reading their false claims and believing them to be true.
I could go through this entire article and tell you what is wrong with every single claim made ( I read the article; I know every claim is wrong). Of course, I'm not actually going to do that unless you tell me to, because I know you won't read it. Really, you're listening to an atheist about religious matters. One of the supposed "problems" is literally, "He believed in devils, evil eyes, and unclean spirits." That can be effectively reinterpreted into "He believed the things the religion claims to be real to be real." That's not a problem at all. How is that a legitimate problem with what Jesus said?
Another thing claimed is that "He talked complete nonsense about the end of the world." How would the writer of this article know what is to happen in the last days? The writer wouldn't know, because the last days haven't happened yet. He also uses up four of his supposed "issues" to say that people thought Jesus was insane (which they did).
Don't look at a website that has the aim of turning people off Jesus, to try and help you, if you sincerely want to understand. Likewise, there are a lot of positive representations of Jesus that aren't right. Go to the source. Try asking God to give you the ability to have faith. In the gospel accounts of Jesus' life, people actually asked Jesus this. Jesus was patient with honest people who weren't sure what they were doing or if they believed, and still is.
There will be judgment for sins, and as I understand it, this means hell. It's not a question of will I or won't I go to hell: we are all headed there by default and Jesus is the way to not go there. The way I think of it is like this: if I make a craft project and it turns out bad, I scrap it. Fortunately a craft project doesn't have a mind of its own!
Jesus also wants to bring us into a better sort of relationship with the divine more generally though. If you read the Old Testament (or just Genesis if you're stuck for time) you will see that right the way through, it is about the troubled relationship of mankind with God and each other, and God rescuing his people only to find time and time again that they forget about him and dedicate their lives to other things. Jesus re-taught the Old Testament teaching the key to a life that pleases God is loving God above all else and loving your neighbour as yourself, but he spent a lot of his life showing that conventional do-gooding wasn't enough to accomplish this and never would be. Jesus accomplished it however, and invited us to follow his way even though we would never manage it, and his crucifixion and resurrection bought us out of the justice we really deserve. If we acknowledge what we are to him, and do whatever we do out of love for God and others, then we find ourselves changing to become more like him anyway.
What is clear to me is that God will accept you as you are, but you have to accept him as he is - not as a website says he is or as you think he might be. It's not so much a rational belief in a concept, as a meeting.
I wish you all the best as you go about trying to meet God.
"Jesus is only quoted as mentioning hades once, and the meaning of that passage is open to interpretation."
Could you perhaps point me to that passage?
No, he doesn't. His misdeeds were finite, so his punishment should be so too.
Not forever. I'd say about for 1000 years. Very light by some peoples metrics but a thousand years is a long ass time to be suffering for. Or maybe his soul was put directly into the shredder, and those who died in the war got reincarnated with the fresh batch of souls in the next generation. Who knows? I'm not dead yet.
I've been to a concentration camp. The things they did to those poor people were beyond cruel. I can't see how he didn't earn a trip there.
Yeah but what do you think the sentence is? Yeah he started an unprovoked world war but he was also a survivor from the previous one and was in a country that was the most blamed and humiliated. Not saying hitler did nothing wrong, quite the opposite. God being the omniscient entity he is does he take into consideration into the mental state? He knows everything so its probable. At which point does that make judgements better or worse for the trial of hitler at the gates of hell?
A non-believer wouldn't want to be one with God for eternity, either. Hitler fought against the church, trying to create his own false church. According to people Hitler knew, he was very much anti-Christian. It sounds to me as though it was very likely he chose Hell.
"Hitler fought against the church, trying to create his own false church."
But many (if not most) of his soldiers were devout Christians.
"According to people Hitler knew, he was very much anti-Christian."
Yet it is reported that in 1941, he told general Gerhard Engel, “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”
"It sounds to me as though it was very likely he chose Hell."
As evil as Hitler was, he wasn't a total moron. Who would actually choose to go to Hell?
Your common sense and reasonable logic are appreciated and very refreshing. The ideological virus that has hijacked Clunk's brain is causing him to robotically spew shit that has no credible value. Thank you OP, for helping to restore rationality to our IIN community.
There you go denying the antecedent again. The topic is Hitler and Hell which is exactly what the OP is talking about. God Clunk, get a hold of your mind. The ideological virus is controlling your thoughts by subverting logic. See if you can understand this Wikipedia article on logic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent
Your ideological virus also has you Affirming the Consequent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
Yes, that is what he's talking about, but his points are not relevant.
"But many (if not most) of his soldiers were devout Christians."
So what? That's unrelated to Hitler's own personal morals. We are not talking about the morality of the Nazis in general; we are talking about Hitler.
"Yet it is reported that in 1941, he told general Gerhard Engel, “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
So what? I've mentioned three people whom Hitler knew and spoke to that claimed he said otherwise.
"As evil as Hitler was, he wasn't a total moron. Who would actually choose to go to Hell?"
Like I said to OP, that question shows a complete misunderstanding of what Heaven and Hell are. Being in Heaven forever, as someone who dislikes God and what he said, would also be endless torture.
Christians can do evil, and Christians can follow non-Christian leaders. He also did try to create his own church, with the idea of "Positive Christianity".
Albert Speer wrote that he saw the church as a mere tool. Joseph Goebbels wrote that he was against Christianity. Martin Bormann also claimed that Hitler was against Christianity. His claims that he was Christian were ruses designed solely for the purpose of making people like him.
"Who would actually choose to go to Hell?"
If you have to ask that question, you probably shouldn't be acting like you know what you're talking about.
"If you have to ask that question, you probably shouldn't be acting like you know what you're talking about"
Fine, I don't know what I'm talking about. Would you be so kind as to answer the question, though? I'm really curious as to who would actually choose to go to Hell.
You do realize the _only_ reason you wouldn't have been one of the first he gassed is that he would have deemed you an _ideal_ candidate for painful medical experiments, right? Hitler would have fucking hated everything about you. He also weirdly was incredibly distressed by animal cruelty.
You would have died in an experiment to determine whether or not the cure for trans was being locked up with 20 starving German Shepherd rescues while still bleeding from genital mutilation.
Let's not dishonor him though.
You know you dont have to be mean. Could of just ended it by saying religious.
I'm agnostic but I give theists the time of day. Unless they are cutting off girls clits. I'm fine with whatever they do.
"I'm fine with whatever they do."
Also with them threatening with eternal damnation if you don't believe in their particular God?
I mean threats of eternal damnation and wanting to purge the nonbelievers are two seperate things.
It's psychological abuse. Hell is almost certainly just the sick revenge-fantasy of some evil religious turds. I don't see how you can possibly go there, no matter what you believe, if you haven't behaved like a total fucking maniac (and even if you have). After all, no (finite) deed warrants infinite punishment.
As an agnostic I disagree when people push their religious agenda in a forceful way (as in convert or die). That being said those nuts who are saying you will burn in hell are genuinely concerned for your wellbeing as weird as it sounds. It's mostly coming from a good place they just have really shitty messaging on it. I feel like they could pump up the heaven bit more. Though I do agree that some people need the stick instead of the carrot.