Is it normal that i wish it weren't necessary for me to be an atheist?

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24 Comments

I know every Atheist argument --most of them-- there is and have successfully converted Jehovah's witnesses , Mormons and Christians that knock on my door. I simply wish I didn't have to. I wish we existed in a reality where there was no need to hone my knowledge against what is evidently illogical. I know it isn't necessary but I would feel terrible if I didn't aid against those that push narrow-minded views regarding abortion, gay rights, and the like.
Whenever I have children I would hate to raise them with my beliefs. The truth is, Atheism is a religion as well. It is a belief system with its own arguments, counter-arguments, and even its own deity --the FSM.
My future children should be able to put their whole effort on living happy lives and not need to put effort in defending their non-belief. It would be ideal if the ideas of belief and non-belief were non-existent. Is it normal to wish Religion didn't exist so Atheism wouldn't have to?

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59% Normal
Based on 44 votes (26 yes)
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Comments ( 24 )
  • Terranaut
    11 years ago

    Bah!!!!!!!!!!!

    "Atheism is a religion"

    I hate fighting fellow atheists for pointless reasons but... Atheism, or at least agnostic atheism (which to my knowledge is the vast majority of atheists) is not a religion, It is rather the null set to the hypothesis "A god/deity exists." It is not the assumption of absolute truth in the statement "No god/deity exists," but rather "There is no evidence supporting the existence of a god/deity, therefore no reason to assume one exists."

    It is just one view on one particular subject, and does not come with any requisites, traditions or dogma.

    The FSM comment is clearly in jest, but to clear it up for some people, the FSM is just to show theists who wish to impose their belief on others exactly what kind of logic they are using. The FSM is non-falsifiable just like other deities, but (like other deities) is a clear construct of man.

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    • AppleMind
      11 years ago

      I must clarify that I didn't mean it was literally a religion -- I admit I made it seem that way. It just seems like one at times. Like you I debate against theists --usually only if they're trying to shove their religion down my throat-- but don't you feel that learning the arguments that debase religion took time and effort and felt somewhat akin to bible school? I've read the Qur'an, several different versions of the bible, taken several religion based philosophy classes and I simply wish my time and effort was wasted in a better way. It's just sad how many people have to waste their time disproving some idea that is clearly false. It's like needing to convince someone that 2+2=4 but they just wont believe you because it doesn't answer "why?" But because religion has a large effect on the world we live in we have to.

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      • Terranaut
        11 years ago

        I guess in that context I understand what you mean. My path towards debating theists was a little different though.

        I just seem to have a natural thirst for knowledge, and early in life took a great interest in biology, and later in life have shifted more towards theoretical physics. My family was never religious, nor did they push me away from religion, so I was free to make my own conclusions. I learned several theories before I even knew people opposed them, and when I first saw the opposing arguments from theists; well, my jaw dropped and I uttered a great "You gotta be kidding me." This wasn't simply because of the presence of opposing theories (I love reading up on differences between two strong or equally viable theories, such as Superstring/M-Theory vs. Canonical/Loop Quantum Gravity,) but rather that such a weak, faith based argument was actually considered to be a competitor to many rigorously theorized, reviewed and tested theories.

        I was motivated to debate theists by my knowledge/understanding of science, and their lack of respect for it; and now debating theists helps motivate me to gain better understanding of science. The understanding of science brings me a lot of happiness, so I feel that nothing is non-productive about these debates. While it may seem to be tedious to be constantly sharpening my knowledge/debate chops, I am enjoying every second of it.

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        • NeuroNeptunian
          11 years ago

          My family was never religious and one of the arguments that I often get from atheists is that I was brainwashed by my family. I never went to church.

          I'll be honest with you, buddy. 2 Months ago, I would have given you a pretty good debate, but the fact is that I have been challenged by so many atheists on this site that I no longer feel a need to explain my beliefs to them, who would only concede if I were to admit that my God is stupid and that they are the enlightened ones that converted me to atheism.

          Hell, 3 years ago we'd have been shooting the shit about how fucking stupid and illogical religion is. But after writing so many long ass posts trying to justify the fact that having this "God" makes me happy and my worship of God does not harm society and my connection to religion has done much more good for me than atheism ever did and how at some point I realized that logic will help me be successful but I can't always rely on it for happiness... honestly, I'm exhausted with it all.

          In short, I'd like to debate with you, but after dozens of them I have come to realize that every debate between religious folk and atheists will be the same. I know all of the atheist points to the argument and I still enjoy reading the materials. It's nothing new to me.

          I'm not a racist, I am not a homophobe, I am not a "socially conservative", and I certainly have nothing against science (I'm typing on one of it's products right now). But I never put atheists on trial and as a common courtesy I would think that they wouldn't do the same to me. And surely, I have been challenged by some great atheists but... it's just gotten old.

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          • Terranaut
            11 years ago

            Then I have absolutely no problem with you, and don't believe you should with me.

            I have no problems with you holding a (seemingly admittedly) illogical belief if it brings you happiness. I could simply not be happy without rational logic, and it brings me happiness to correct misinformation, as well as search for further understanding in the world.

            As long as you agree that faith based beliefs should hold no bearing on how people should treat each other, or how our society functions as a whole, then we have nothing to disagree about.

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  • bananaface
    11 years ago

    Hmmm, I don't know. As an atheist, I really wish I could believe in a God, and I envy those who have that comfort. However, I'm stuck with atheism, so I'll just have to get on with it. For some, atheism is liberating, whereas others, such as myself, don't see it that way. Therefore, if a person doesn't want to believe in atheism and finds religion to be the liberating belief system, then why would you want to have it any other way? Let them be happy.

    In my opinion, the only problem is when people take their beliefs too far, mainly by trying to force their religion upon others. That's what I wish would go away.

    By the way, when referring to religion, I'm merely referring to a believe in a God and probably an afterlife. I'm not talking about all the other politics crap that seems to come with some religions (such as hate against gays and wanting a role in education etc.).

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  • dappled
    11 years ago

    Some things don't have logic; like love. The logical thing is to accept the illogical as it is.

    I feel like I should be wearing Vulcan ears while saying this.

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    • NeuroNeptunian
      11 years ago

      Sir, you have won over ColdheartedassholeNeptunian.

      And OP, a lot of missionaries are really only doing what they are doing out of duty, not out of genuine love and conviction for their beliefs. Take it from an atheist whose spiritual journey has led them to the Mormon church. My faith in God is akin to my faith that the sun will rise again tomorrow. I have nothing to prove either of my beliefs, surely I can still hold those faiths as such that I hold faith that I will live to see the sun rise tomorrow, although I have no proof that I will live to see tomorrow yet I still plan for the weekend. Faith can be applied to many "logical" assumptions as well, because we have faith that our logic will still be true and sound when we wake up tomorrow.

      If we could all just respect each others beliefs and not fight so damn much this wouldn't be an issue.

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      • Terranaut
        11 years ago

        I hate to counter against a rather peaceful post... But...

        Faith is a position or belief held without evidence.

        The sun coming up tomorrow is, by definition, not a position based on faith. You have absolutely boatloads of evidence that the sun will indeed come up tomorrow. Though you may not be able to ever PROVE it, you can be quite certain in it, due to the evidence you have (proof and absolute truth do not exist in practice).

        Now, I'm making assumptions here, but something tells me that you do not have any reputable evidence for any god/deity (I would think you'd be quite famous if you did). This is a position based on complete faith, which you make no bones about.

        P.S. I think you're ending statement is a little backwards. I truly believe that debating (what I think you meant by fighting,) is the only way that we will either be able to resolve the issue, or get to a point of mutual respect.

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        • NeuroNeptunian
          11 years ago

          Debating and fighting are not the same thing.

          And I understand your logic, and expected someone to debate this with me, but at the same time, I have no proof that I will even be alive tomorrow, yet I still plan for the weekend. When I open my front door, I have faith that the person on the other side will not be standing there to shoot me, even though statistical data points to the possibility.

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          • Terranaut
            11 years ago

            To clarify further...

            Presence of Evidence + Lack of Proof =/= Faith
            Lack of Evidence = Faith

            This is simply how logic works.

            The positive claim being made is "When I open my front door, someone will shoot me." The only shred of evidence for this is that it may happen at an obscenely low rate. This evidence is very weak, and doesn't stand up to evidence for its rejection. You have (consciously or not) weighed the evidence for both, and decided that there is no reason to believe in the positive claim, which does not necessarily mean you believe the negative claim is the absolute truth. You took no position of faith here, you simply weighed evidence and made a logical decision.

            It is through this same process that you will not believe me when I assert that I am actually a 20 foot tall invisible intangible unicorn that farts (invisible) rainbows. The only evidence I can supply for this claim is basically "Because I said so," which is a huge logical fallacy. This alone is enough to reject the positive claim. Once again, you would not be taking a position of faith in rejecting the positive claim (you would if you believed the positive claim with the lack of evidence).

            This is also the logic that makes the belief in any god/deity/metaphysics completely irrational. There is no evidence that they exist in any way shape or form. Believing in god/deities/the metaphysical is no different from believing that this response was written by a unicorn of the previously stated description. Neither of them can be falsified, but that is no reason to assert they are true, or even remotely believe they may be.

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      • dappled
        11 years ago

        I wish all theists were like you. You put that in a way that doesn't imply anything about atheism and isn't exclusive. I guess maybe because you're in the rare position of knowing both sides of the coin.

        Amen to your final point. :)

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  • BHolt
    11 years ago

    "Atheism is a religion"

    If Atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sex position.

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  • petasun88
    11 years ago

    I think Atheism is lazy period! I put on a fearless search for the infinite. I searched every book and talked to every person i could and i made a date with destiny that i would find god or go out trying.
    One day near the end of my search
    I did not find god that day
    He allowed me in thru his grace
    I didn't understand that you just can't find him.

    I in effect had the sun fall down on me one hot summer day in august , i indeed had a strange experience as i had never heard of before a person having a waking death experience. I saw a personage of darkness walk in from a corner of my living-room and he had an aspect of tri-ality. He looked for all purposes like death with the black hood of his office but with no sickle or scythe i could see. Upon his arrival i split and my spirit self stood to my right and i was amazed to see myself in the third person. I split into three and i noticed another aspect of myself walking hell for me at that moment in the image of christ my redeemer. I heard a voice that said it was time for me to make a choice. You have to choose right or wrong and you have to do it now. I chose right and was immediately cold as being on a barren snowy mountaintop. What intrigued me most was that all light was reversed i had two ornamental cats on speakers, one white and one black and the black cat was casting a shadow of pure white light i could pass my hand thru.
    That still amazes me to this day. That same week i had an experience where information was opened up to be i became one with everything.

    2 weeks later i had a new spirit enter into me and i noticed by body was changed and i lost all interior motives to do bad.
    I noticed dormant spiritual gifts coming to the forefront.
    and i noticed a shift in my bodies frequency. I can feel a faster vibration and achieved complete peace. I have been transfigured with Christs love.
    Now each morning i have daily witness of his love and personal existence in my life.
    I absolutely have a personal relationship and he continually proves to me that he knows the most intimate desires of my heart.
    I gave up my life for the cause of truth and determined i was going to find out or die!
    Although i don't know if i recommend this for everyone, i do recommend your fearless search for the truth!
    its our responsability each person to find the truth.
    not just talk about it.............do it!

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    • Pseodonihm
      9 years ago

      Amen. And blessed be.

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  • Pseodonihm
    9 years ago

    A quote from Discworld

    "All right," said Susan, "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need ... fantasies to make life bearable."
    No. Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meet the rising ape.
    "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers?"
    Yes. As practice. You have to start out learning to believe the little lies.
    "So we can believe the big ones?"
    Yes. Justice. Duty. Mercy. That sort of thing.
    "They're not the same at all!"
    Really? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet you act, like there was some sort of rightness in the universe by which it may be judged:
    "Yes. But people have got to believe that or what's the point?"
    My point exactly.

    By the way I believe in the divine.

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  • Aurora93
    10 years ago

    I wish atheism didn't exist so bloody preaching atheists didn't exist.

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  • BLAh81
    11 years ago

    "Atheism is a religion"

    Is bald a hair color?

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  • [Old Memory]
    11 years ago

    Both science and religion are technically illogical, as they were both created by humans without infinite knowledge to use as comparison to achieve fact. Thats why i follow the strict agnostic code:

    "We cannot know with certainty if God or Christ exists. Then again they COULD. Then again their COULD be a giant reptilian bird in charge of everything. Can we be certain there isn't? NO, so it's pointless to talk about."

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  • Ono
    11 years ago

    You lost me at 'successfully converted'. I call BS on that.

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  • Dad
    11 years ago

    Belief in a supernatural (ie God) and the lack of belief (ie Atheism) isn't exactly a decision of who is right.

    There is only one right way and that is through intelligent discussion using facts. Just being lazy minded (I prefer the word foolish) and saying God did it, is absolutely ridiculous.

    Of the thousands of years since, say Jesus was around (you know that guy born in the Middle East) There has NEVER been one tiny bit of any proof whatsoever in God or any miracle being performed or absolute anything religiously or in the belief of god alone.

    Nothing.
    No prayer ever confirmed answered ever.
    No one who blasphemed ever struck down by a lightening bolt!
    No fact or reason or anything at all (not even an insy bitsy bit) in the existence of 'God'

    On the contrary.
    Evolution is now widely accepted as fact (by believers in God too).
    Thunder/Lightning/Great floods/Earthquakes/Fire and all NATURAL disasters, have ALL been confirmed scientifically as NOT an act of God any longer (and I emphasize, ANY LONGER, since 'believers' have obviously, as per normal, changed their viewpoint on this).

    The LACK of evidence of any God existing, is so much lacking, that the 'debate' between fact and fiction (ie science and God) is not even relevant any longer.
    There is absolutely NO choice in the matter. "TOTAL Lack of evidence" of God, won a long time ago.
    And ONLY science is taught in public schools. NOT God fiction.

    Here's an excellent quote I like stating:

    Religions are our fantasy when reality is too complex to understand. Simple people like simple answers. How did the universe begin ? Simple – God magically made it. Complex – in the Science of cosmology you can learn about how the universe exists and what we have observed about it's beginnings.
    The simple answer takes 2 seconds. The complex answer takes 10-15 years of dedicated study and even then, you still won't have all the answers you were looking for, but you will have facts, evidence, observation, models that have predictive capabilities, truth and reality. God & Faith are never answers to anything. They are when you want to give up and let your mind enjoy the simple, untruthful fantasy of knowing nothing at all.

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  • howaminotmyself
    11 years ago

    Can't have one without the other. What would fill the void if neither existed? They are only tools we use to gain a better understanding of our place in this world. A better understanding of ourselves. It is what makes us human, the contimplation of such thoughts. But we often forget that these ideas cannot tell us who we are, they can only guide us to the unknowable answers. They are merely tools. Kind of like forks versus chopsticks, whatever gets the job done to feed yourself.

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  • disthing
    11 years ago

    It's normal to wish everybody shared similar thoughts on everything since that would be the most harmonious society imaginable.

    Sometimes it's good to accept and embrace diversity of thought, even in relation to the universe and purpose.

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  • FocoUS
    11 years ago

    I'm also atheist and staying atheist. But the thing is when missionaries knock on a door asking to spread the word of God they have no idea if the person on the other side of that door is Atheist, Orthodox, Lutheran, Mormon, Catholic, or Hindu. And missionaries annoy EVERYBODY so I try not to take it personally as an atheist. What I do get angry about is when people try to put the 10 commandments in public schools. And atheism is not a religion.

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