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This is mainly a question for guys. Most guys seem to enjoy porn and such but when it comes to the women involved they act like they would never have anything to do with the same women they masturbated to. Is this hypocrisy normal? Discuss.
Anyone who decides to go into that line knows what they are in for, if they want respect they shouldn't be looking for easy money. The stigma is that they are lazy or too stupid to do real work.
I don't believe that is necessarily the case. Further exploring why there is a stigma isn't really where I'd like to focus. I think we all agree there is a stigma where it comes from is irrelevant at this stage. What I'm hoping to explore is why people that purchase their services (i.e. pornography or prostitutes or strippers etc) look down on them. There wouldn't be a market for what they do if there weren't purchasers of the commodity but I find it staggeringly difficult to reconcile why those purchasers feel they are above those they paid.
They are looked down on by these men for the same reasons (cheap, lazy, greedy, stupid), after they use them to scratch their primal itch that is.
I don't think we're connecting on the subject matter. That's okay, but I just don't see a reason to continue this particular dialogue.
So the truth that most men are assholes doesn't connect with you? Whatever you don't seem to accept anyone's input anyway. Idk why you bothered posting.
I could say the same of you. Whether or not most men are this or that isn't what I'm wanting to discuss. I thought this was already clear but I don't care why in a general way sex workers are looked down on. I'm focusing on the men that use their services and why they, in light of their consumption of the commodity, consider themselves better or in a position to marginalize the purveyors of the goods.
In all honesty, I don't believe that most men are "assholes" I believe that some are and so are some women. Your ability to perceive what I have accepted also appears skewed so we've come full circle. I don't know why you bothered posting.
Prostitutes are disliked due to the reputation of carrying deceases, being filthy, and poor.
Porn actresses, are looked upon fondly since they're acting out all sorts of fantasies.
Men hide the fact they enjoy porn due to how most women find it appalling and fail to understand that it's extremely common thing for men do.
I have been to Holland they have the right idea a controlled area run by the city and all the girls are checked by hospital every 4weeks if clean given licence to work as prostitute
It been that way since Time immemorial even the bible says something about it we get sex works coming into the hospital after being attacked men think because they sell them selves they can do what they want because nobody will care lucky people have jobs houses families but ta1 wrong choice and no job rented flat wrong type of friends have a child what would you do to make sure the children had food clothes I certainly wouldn't do it not for me but for my children
I really should have been more clear in my post as adult entertainment workers and sex workers face some of the same, but many different issues. Since you've opted for sex workers I'll go that way with my reply.
Yes, many sex workers are vulnerable to attack by their customers. Many people think that having a pimp mitigates this factor but the truth is that the woman is just as likely to get another beating from the pimp for not making money and taking time off in a hospital. Some pimps do perform some valuable services for their women but it's still a very one-sided relationship and most, if not all, of them would be better off if prostitution were legalized and they could get better support from law enforcement. As it is, many times when women are victimized they are still in trouble with the law. And there are quite a few underage prostitutes that are tricked into the business and have very few resources to get out.
Have you ever known a sex worker on a personal level? They are some of the most untrustworthy people you're ever going to meet. They will lie, cheat and steal to get what they want. Usually it's money. They don't mind selling their body to get it either.
It's a little difficult to follow who is responding to who on this site, so on the off chance this is directed to me...
Firstly, I would say I think it's beneath your dignity to use the term "whore" to describe a person involved in adult entertainment or as a sex worker. It's certainly not necessary to use a derogatory phrase as a simple identifier. But it could be that I'm wrong and it's not below your dignity.
Secondly, what I can't understand is why the pot calls the kettle black.
Sex workers are looked down on because they allow themselves to act as filthy cum dumpsters/dumpers. Humans weren't designed for no strings attached sex, those that do often end up dissatisfied. Sex is not something that should be thrown around but a highly personal act held between two people who love eachother.
Actually, some scientists are speculating that the opposite may be true, that monogamy may actually be the unnatural condition for us, especially considering the activities of our ancestors and the propensity for humans to cheat, the rather noisy affair of it, especially from women, not to mention they think that the end of the penis may be designed to scoop out the previous partners sperm to increase the chances that they are the one to father the child. For the most part, monogamy is a societal idea drilled into our heads.
That being said I still do not advocate cheating. Now, if both partners are OK with having another in the bedroom, then by all means.
I don't feel that issues surrounding fidelity are pertinent to this discussion. However, I also don't believe monogamy is anything but a social construct, but perhaps one that was necessary as a foundation to creating civilization as we know it. I believe we can learn quite a lot from the behaviors of our primate cousins and see how their actions, while seemingly crude, often are seen as echo's in our own beings. For example gorillas will often kill the offspring a female has with another male when he takes her as a partner. We might see this as domestic abuse. The way they mate could also be seen through a human lense as rape.
I think a thread about this topic could be compelling as well.
The scientific world has descended into degeneracy, with the number of legit scientists lessening. But now, if you want to use what some random guys say (probably to justify their own fucking around), then by all means do so. I, on the other hand, will find a nice pretty girl that possesses proper values and stick with her.
So then who is worse the cum dumpster or the cum dumptee? The point of this is the hypocrisy of fapping to porn then acting like the women in sex work are some how a lower life form. To draw an analogy: A dealer sells drugs to addicts. The addicts are degenerate losers because of their addiction and then they call the dealer scum. Who is really the scum in this situation?
Fapping doesn't involve any sexual intercourse or other human beings, and on top of that most people keep it a private affair instead of broadcasting it to anyone who wants to look. Hence, it is better in these regards.
Using porn for fapping doesn't make it bad because it's not us telling them to keep making it. If it's already there, then might as well use it.
Honestly, I 'sorta' share your views there. In fact, I think sex workers are necessary as homogenized milk in any economy. They actually serve the purpose of filling a major gap.
Think of all those men (or women for that matter) who's supposed better halves have lost their drive for sexual activity. Those people that claim their spouse hasn't performed their marital roles in weeks, months or even years.
I remember living in a red light district once. A building was dedicated to these sort of women and EVERY SINGLE NIGHT, cars were jam packed in the parking lot that some rode onto the pavement outside.
That there is demand born out of necessity rather than mere urges. There's a lot of neglected sex lives out there for reasons best known to the beholder. And (as always) the number is much larger than the people that decide to be open about it.
Yet people openly ride around on their high horses, pointing fingers at them like they're scum. Them with their $1000 internet bill dedicated to streaming porn. Or the rest of the desensitised lot on s first name basis with their Viagra vendor for the very same reason.
Truth is, as much as anyone can bash another for adultery, sex workers are necessary. They are a profitable industry that does have an economic impact; financially and socially. I'll respect anyone for not sleeping with them, but no more than the person that does.
The person that decides to don their full bottom wig and judge them however...
I always look down on sex workers and their customers as well because they both support adultery and render marriage pointless.
So you're not a fan of personal responsibility? There are many things in the world that can be bad for some people, people that take responsibility for their actions decide whether or not they should do them or not. It's perfectly possible that unmarried people could be purchasing adult services, why should they not have that option when adulterers can have an affair at the office or in nearly any other situation.
It disgusting that people do look down on people work in the sex industry.
Steve there are many kinds of sex workers. Did you know Asia Carrera a porn star is a member of Mensa? Please try to make a contribution that is worthy of discussion.
I said MOST whores, not all of them.
As for the second part of your comment, it's extremely depressing to see someone in the possession of high intelligence degrading themselves to such undignified and disgusting behaviour.
Why is it depressing for you? You don't have to do it. Maybe they enjoy the work. Some people really like having sex.
But we're getting off the topic. If you're not someone that watches porn or otherwise uses sex workers then your not who I was addressing. Feel free to excuse yourself if you need to.
The human race is for the most part incredibly disgusting and stupid. The few intelligent individuals worthy of being called "human beings" are the world's last hope for even the tiniest sense of perfection. It's truly awful to see an intellectual throw themselves into the dirty and worthless void that is common society. That's why it's depressing.
@bucho's_butt
I have to agree with OP. They, in my experience, seem to be no more or less dishonest, with others or themselves, than other run-of-the-mill people, coworker, employees, friends, etc.
Everybody lives with a belief system that, true or not, serves their purposes and their needs. Christians, salespeople, politicians, all have useful beliefs that allow them to take what they need from the environment (social and otherwise) and other people. Basically, everybody, every single person, believes something that is more useful than true to stay alive and have a meaningful live. I believe it is the stigma of sex workers and what they mean to men and women (and how that respectively threatens each) that turns their particular way of life and belief systems into something amoral. Into something generally perceived by many cultures as dirty and shameful.
And from a whore's perspective, we're the suckers that are fooling ourselves. Maybe you and they are right. Maybe we're all whores and suckers selling ourselves to fill our needs, believing what we need to believe to feel okay with it all. We're all a little bit concerned with "customer service," aren't we? That's culture for you.
My take:
These women are using the things that make them powerful to make money. Why does being attractive, having a vagina, make them powerful? Because we give them that power over us (men). It is our desire for them that they hold over us in a much more concrete and direct way than we normally socially experience. Most women give a little, take a little, etc. But with hookers our desire is clearly exploited.
I think this may be somewhat perceived as emasculating. Our relationship with our mother is part of the basis for our relationships with women in general, so it becomes a very "mommy took advantage of me" sort of situation. And men just can't stand that.
To tolerate this, I think some men have to devalue hookers, shame them, think of them as dirty, lowly, think of them disparagingly. I think this perspective is partially a result of the need to cope with men's sense of emasculation by prostitutes. I think it's less a resulting perspective and more a valuable coping mechanism. A useful tool.
It's probably no small part of it, either, that a john with his cock in a hooker is, at the end of the day, just one in a million. Not special at all. That can make a man feel very small. No wonder men have to devalue and look down upon hookers. If they didn't, they would face severe disappointment in dealing with their identity as men and in facing their own smallness and mortality.
An interesting and insightful take, if not just a little disturbing in it's implication. While I don't believe you intended to write a justification for the behavior it could be construed by some as such.
Would you care to posit further on adult entertainment, or the continued shunning of sex workers after leaving the trade? Or possibly about male sex workers, who though in the minority, still face many of the same issues as women?
Its interesting how you ignored bucho's post right above this one. Sex workers are in fact some of the lowest of the low when it comes to morals and overall class, social grace, and dignity. Sure you can find some that completely prove this wrong, but those are not the majority of the workers. It isn't a moral dilemma to consider selling your body, if you don't have morals to begin with. And someone who makes that choice isn't going to magically get respect just because people patronize them for their services.
People make the choice to join the industry, its nobody's responsibility to sit them down and say "there is a stigma attached with this career choice". Part of being an adult is making choices, good and bad. The trick is to learn from the bad ones and congratulate yourself on the good ones. When your number finally gets called hopefully you made far more good choices than bad ones. Resulting in a higher quality of life.
Just because I want to smoke weed and it is illegal where I live so I need to find someone willing to provide the commodity doesn't mean I respect the person for doing so. Especially if that person is a complete stoner loser who doesn't work a job and is a sloppy mess who smokes weed all day long (yes I get weed from someone like this). He is serving a utility for me and I am willing to pay for that utility.
Respect is earned, not given.
I haven't responded to every post in the thread because I don't believe they all warrant a reply or I simply can't discern who they are in response to.
But at your behest I have, so there you go.
Now to your points about morals and overall class, social grace, and dignity.
There are a few angles on these that I believe should be addressed. The first being that all of these are completely subjective. I feel it's beyond my mandate of living a life to pass judgement on others, thus I don't consider arguments predicated on subjective metrics to be valid.
Secondly, all of the things you mentioned are social and/or cultural constructs, meaning that in one society they may be deemed as negative and in another as positive. There are no objective norms that transcend all cultures in all times and all places. Perhaps this is to our determent or it may not matter in the least, again it's in the perspective. I personally don't think any metric for assessing how well a life is lived is necessary, it's only a matter of how the individual feels about that life at any point in time.
Many believe that your consumption of marijuana makes you a bad or inferior person. I don't believe that, I believe you are making a choice that you want to make. I do not know how informed your choice is, but it is likewise none of my business. I would not treat you any better or worse for knowing you have made a choice that I wouldn't make.
And the real point I'm driving at isn't about respect so much as it is about dignity. I see homeless people all the time that I believe could be doing better for themselves if they tried, but for whatever reason they choose not to try. I don't particularly respect what they've become but I don't attempt to demean their dignity as they are after all, human beings and I believe that all life is precious and deserving of being treated as such. Of course, YMMV.
I "kind of" see your point. Just because people would masturbate to these women doesn't mean they'd want to be in a relationship with them. It's not always because they look down on them, it's just that they don't like the idea of their partner having sex with other men and women and if it's their career then it's going to happen a lot. Doesn't necessarily mean they think "low" of them for it, just that they don't think they are compatible with such women.
It's a little difficult to follow who is responding to who on this site, so on the off chance this is directed to me...
This isn't about whether or not you'd want to be in a relationship with one of these people, it's about whether it's hypocritical to utilize their services then shame the provider for the commodity they chose to purchase. I assert that, yes, it is hypocritical to do so. As to relationships anyone should be allowed to choose for themselves who they would be in a relationship with. So then if you're opposed to being in a relationship with such a person then... don't. Much like it doesn't make sense to oppose gay marriage; if you don't want to be in a gay marriage then don't marry someone of the same gender, and beyond that leave others to the choices they prefer to make.
If a comment is on its own and not got a @____ sign on it, then it's (usually) directed to the OP (original poster).
It doesn't necessarily have to be hypocritical to be wrong, so I'm not in agreement that it's hypocritical. I can understand why people will look down on it even if I myself don't look down on it (or highly of it). Kind of like if someone was bullying another for their kicks, just because they look down on the person that's putting up with their BS doesn't necessarily make it hypocritical, it still makes it wrong just not hypocritical.
I think people look down on it because they're doing something that doesn't take as much effort, they're doing something that every human being can pretty much do, they're profiting off of basic human intimacy. Like I said, I don't look down on them for it nor do I look highly of them for it but I can understand why some people would.
Thank you for helping me understand how it works, I was trying to follow the little lines next to the posts but there are too man comments (which I think is a good thing) to see it all on my tablet.
When I say I think it's hypocritical I'm referring to two specific condition coinciding: The use of adult entertainment AND the mocking, derision, etc by the consumers of the product.
At the risk of using another imperfect analogy (sort of a reverse one but it may work) let me venture this: A man comes home and when frustrated kicks, beats or otherwise abuses his dog AND he volunteers or works for an entity that crusades for animal rights (being kind to animals). This would be hypocritical as well. Either condition on it's own just is what it is (beating = bad, helping = good) but when one engages in both there is hypocrisy. Anyway, I feel I've made that point as well as I can, so I'll let it be (for now).
I see that many of you are attempting to explain why it's looked down on. That's all well and good but not really what I was looking for. Believe me, I know the reasons I've heard them all many times. But what struck me about your reason is that, while I have heard it many times, it simply isn't true. Doing pornographic films or working as a prostitute are excruciatingly difficult vocations. That people don't see it that way is part of the problem. I'm not some ultra-feminist that wants these things banned, quite the contrary, I'm trying to foster understanding and create an environment for those involved in sex work to have better working conditions. Again, I ask you to take my word for it when I tell you it's far from easy, it, like some other professions, leads to many emotional problems.
Those WHORES aren't fucking human beings.
They're TOOLS God put on this earth to pleasure cocks.
The problem is most sex workers have been victims in one way or another. Most people don't do it because they just love it SO much. And there's the disease. I don't blame them for cheating I blame the person who is married .
Prostitution should be legalized and ran by the government like it is in some countries where the sex workers and clients are screened for stds. This would create a safer enviroment for everyone. In some countries people on disability get a free hooker monthly to keep them happy. People should be entitled to do what they want with their bodies.
While I can agree that people should be able to do as they like with their bodies I don't think any government should be very involved with the process. Something like the monthly STD screening in Nevada might be as far as I would want them involved.
But more to the point, even if it were decriminalized there would still be an unwarranted stigma associated with it as we've seen with pornography actors and strippers. I don't think that the same people that consume these commodities have any business claiming a higher moral ground, however time and again we see this happening.
I know a good many as well but my "data" if you'd call it that is purely anecdotal and not at all scientific, I don't know if such a repository of knowledge has ever been attempted.
There is a fascinating documentary called "After Porn Ends" that has interviews with both men and women and what they say about their post-porn lives is saddening.
Yeah I saw an interview with Belladona once and it was very sad and unpleasant. She had good things to say but there was alot of terrible shit she broke down over.
Michelle is actually a very sweet person. I haven't kept in touch like I should but I've heard mixed things about her present and future. It's unfortunate that regardless of anything else she might ever accomplish she'll likely always be known as that woman that did all those anal videos.
Sex is viewed as dirty due to religion enforced societal standards.
People who sell this, as par of course, will be viewed as dirty.
There must be many filthy people on Madison Ave then.
But that aside, the point of this exercise is largely to reconcile the hypocrisy of men on the subject of the women involved in sex work. It would seem we have a sort of chicken and the egg situation, would you care to comment on that aspect of the subject or are you content simply stating the obvious?
I don't agree with the religiously enforced standards.
You know, if you want someone to respond, don't act like a sarcastic jerk.
You could say that yes, it is hypocritical of men who sleep with prostitutes to otherwise deem them dirty or lesser in standing than they are.
It is very likely easier for them to actively defer their feelings of shame for sleeping with such a person than to look in the mirror and realise they just bumped uglies with someone who does it for money.
These are men who are throwing stones and living in glass houses.
TL;DR, it's easier for men to blame and ridicule someone else as to defer blame from themselves for their own actions.
They are looked down upon because being a porn star is considered on the same level of being a porn star, it is labelled as taboo by society and those in such professions are not highly regarded by others.
So if that is the case how can the people, largely men that "benefit" from the services they provide be any better?
I can't reconcile the hypocrisy of a guy fapping to porn then degrading the woman by saying she's a slut. Can you help me to understand the cognitive dissonance?
Sorry I meant to say that society considers porn stars to be on the same level of strippers and prostitutes, that is shamelessly selling their body for a quick buck. Although there is a huge market for pornographic and other content of a sexual nature, those who are involved in professions like porn, adult entertainment, nude modeling, etc. are not generally respected by the majority of society. It's just not seen as a respectable thing to do to, and family members or close relatives of those who are adult performers often feel ashamed if anyone finds out. There is this looming social stigma surrounding the adult industry and prostitution. If men didn't enjoy porn then there would be no need for porn stars - that's simple supply and demand. People can try to deny it, but the bottom line is that sex sells. If porn or nude content didn't exist then guys would jerk off to women wearing sexy bikinis or lingerie. Whether it's entirely fair or not for people to judge others for anything they choose to do, as long as they're not harming anyone else, is open to debate. But I feel like many people just don't understand it, or they see it as something inherently "dirty", or they don't want their children to be lured into a similar path. Lots of people have the idea that putting yourself in a position of having sex with multiple people is unethical, immoral, and overly promiscuous, or excessively lustful, even if it's for money. Everyone has their reasons personally, but sex is usually seen as something that people acknowledge as necessary, but no one wants to talk about it openly... Also, I don't think that the men who admit to jerking off to porn are the ones who will tend to criticize porn stars, it will instead be the guys who jerk off to porn AND are ashamed that they do who will try doing that. Because most normal, rational, and logical people do recognize that there is a societal need for porn stars and sex workers, who are of course in these professions as a result of their voluntary free will, and that being a porn star or a stripper is just a job like any other.
Interesting. It would seem then that I have come across an inordinate number of men that are ashamed of their activities and choose the cowards way of blaming the object of their obsession for said obsession.
Or perhaps you could visit the chat room on this very site and witness the phenomenon for yourself.
I don't really agree with your analogy of this being like a drug dealer and addict, because an addict gets addicted after he or she starts taking drugs, and there is no biological need to take them. It's a little bit different here because everyone has sexual desires that can manifest themselves in different ways, of course. I would like to say that guys who bad mouth porn stars have some kind of unhealthy attitude towards porn. One is that they could be ashamed of jerking to it, another could be that they find themselves somehow addicted to it. So now it relates back to your drug dealer and addict analogy. I suppose a recreational drug user wouldn't feel the same antagonism towards a dealer and blame them for his/her problems or issues that an addict would be more likely to do. Same thing applies here. I watch porn sometimes, but I realize it's no substitute for a healthy sex life, I have normal sexual fantasies, and porn isn't the only thing that turns me on.
Most of all, I respect girls and women as human beings. Guys and men who talk condescendingly about porn stars, adult entertainers, strippers, prostitutes...these guys are, on some level, misogynists and sexists. I've seen interviews with several porn stars, most of the time they were really bright young women, funny, sweet, charming, intelligent, more than capable of succeeding at any profession that they could have chosen. For better or worse they got into this. But it was very clear to me that porn was one thing and who these girls were as people was something completely different. Their job didn't define them. They were just normal regular girls, unfortunately many times with rough childhoods or a history of sexual abuse or growing up in a strict family, and that they experienced things in life or felt the need to break free of expectations, that potentially influenced them to come down these paths. For the most part, only the girls who had interesting life experiences or stories to tell, not girls who "just liked sex", were the ones who actually did make it in porn because it requires you to be incredibly strong willed. I have seen how in some cases being a porn star has devastating mental, emotional, and psychological consequences. Some girls have breakdowns, others start abusing drugs or alcohol. I don't think any guy who criticizes porn stars really has any clue about what they have to go through. Sure, a lot of porn stars (at the top of the industry) become pretty financially well off, but it takes a toll on their mind in the long run. And if anything I respect what they do. I also respect that they learn a lot about their own sexuality in the process and become more aware individuals.
Analogies nearly by definition will be flawed. What I did was attempt to put the patterns into a more recognizable form so that those seemingly unable to grasp the salient points could find their way.
I'm astonished and pleased that you wrote such a long and detailed response, you seem to have an insightful grasp on the situation.
Sex workers have been helping married women for ages. Being able to get a piece of booty on the side without strings attached keeps men satisfied and returning home to an otherwise unbearable existence with their wives