Is it normal to hate arguing with people about well-established facts?

66% Normal
28 Comments

My French gardener Pierre drove me crazy today. We were talking about someone's post on IIN.com and I said,
"Well, generally Americans are much less liberal about sex than Europeans."
Pierre then starts disagreeing with me.
Later I said,
"All humans have an ego."
(This we've known since the time of Freud.)
Pierre then disagreed with me, saying that only Westerners have egos, which is ridiculous.
The same old thing kept happening. I'd say something bleedingly obvious and he'd argue for the sake of it, like some idiotic devil's advocate.
I was in a hurry and I told him that I am not interested in arguing with him about well-established facts. He told me,
"It's not arguing, it's debate, and in France, my friends are intellectuals who like to debate."
I said,
"Well, I went to grad school too and everywhere else it's antisocial to argue with people when they clearly don't want be arguing and it's antisocial to disagree with people who say obviously true things such as 'there are seven days in a week'. Disagreement causes conflict. Conflict is antisocial. End of story."
is it normal to be as pissed as I was with this annoying convo?
Is it because I've been in a bad mood lately?

Voting Results
66% Normal
Based on 44 votes (29 yes)
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Comments ( 28 )
  • dom180
    11 years ago | pl

    I think your gardener has a point.

    Freud only ever observed the human condition from a Western standpoint, so his views are at best limited (at other times laughable). Western cultures are individualistic and driven by bettering the individual, whereas there are non-Western cultures which are driven by collectivism and the bettering of the group.

    You'd have to define what an ego meant for that conversation to make any sense anyway.

    And yes, I *am* playing devil's advocate. But your behaviour was very close-minded. There are well-established facts, but to treat any affair of the mind as if it is well-established would be foolish as we know so little about the human mind.

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    • [Old Memory]
      11 years ago

      Freud made most of his observations by watching children, before the drive for success developed. He was spot on in many cases, and much of his work is still used. A professional who knows what he is talking about, would dismiss the notion of his work being "at best limited" or "laughable".

      The man was a genius, not always right, but nobody is.

      "whereas there are non-Western cultures which are driven by collectivism and the bettering of the group."

      Communism (and that's what you describe, even if you say you're not) doesn't work, so there is no need to study it.

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      • dom180
        11 years ago

        "Limited" does not mean "bad", it just means "can't describe everything in its field", which Freud's theories just can't. Neither can any one psychological theory, but that isn't the point. My point was that to treat Freud's work (or that of his contemporaries) as gospel is not wise.

        You are right about Freud making most of his observations on children. I think there's insufficient evidence to suggest he is "spot on" while we cannot define in the tangible world the abstract concepts Freud used, such as the Id, Ego, Superego, unconscious mind etc. While there is so much left to study in psychology (seeing as it is such a young science), there is no mandate to say anyone is spot on in any cases at all. Many continue to use Freud's work because it is successful as an explanation of the human condition, but I refuse to subscribe to what I see as fundamentally unscientific.

        The man was a genius indeed. You could go as far as to say he spawned a whole new field of scientific study.

        Communism is an economic system, not a social system. I am talking about social systems, not economic ones.

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        • [Old Memory]
          11 years ago

          To treat anything as gospel is not wise.

          Communism is an economic system, but obviously such a system has a huge if not total effect on the social system it co-habits with. Capitalism is no different. People have to live under these systems, so the social and economic are one, stuck together.

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          • dom180
            11 years ago

            While it's true that economic systems and social systems are always closely linked, I think we've got to look into the issue of which comes first in different scenarios. Does the social system evolve to fit the economic system, or does the economic system form based on the society? It's a bit of both, of course, and the ever-growing influence of typical Western (individualist) society on typical non-Western (collectivist) cultures distorts further the fine balance between the social and economic system that had evolved in that region.

            Anyway, to say that the two are highly dependent on one-another is not to say that they are the same.

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            • [Old Memory]
              11 years ago

              The chicken or the egg, the result is the same!

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  • wigsplitz
    11 years ago

    Maybe his point was, you can always learn something new or apply your knowledge in new ways. It's an exercise in thinking differently. Instead of getting frustrated, try to see if maybe he's right, or prove him wrong using less conventional and tired tactics. So called 'well established facts' aren't always so 'factual' if you really look into it.

    For instance....

    Not all weeks have 7 days. The 7 day week is basically meaningless anyway since it doesn't follow any natural cycle like day or year does. It's completely man-made. There are 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 , 8 , 9 and 10 day weeks in different calendars. Aztecs and Maya have 13 day weeks and also 20 day weeks.

    Why did you think a week could ONLY be 7 days? You didn't even think about different cultures and times, and that a 'week' is completely arbitrary anyway. See?

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  • Retard73
    11 years ago

    Monsior u a stupid amerikan

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  • NotStrangeBird
    11 years ago

    Well lah-dee-dah.

    I had to stop the same arguement between my butler, caddy, cheauffeur, accountant, and sommellier.

    I almost dropped my Faberge egg!!!

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    • Anonymous Post Author
      11 years ago

      It's "chauffeur", not "chauffeaur" and "sommelier", not "sommellier". I learned all that from my French gardener :-)
      I'm sorry that it annoys you that I can afford a gardener. I work alongside him and I get just as dirty. Which is why I end up in discussion with him.

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      • NotStrangeBird
        11 years ago

        What does him being your French gardener have to do with anything? You're obviously proud of yourself for having a staff.

        It's not really relavent to your post, you know. The story goes just fine without that fact.

        Do you have a German mechanic and a Swedish masseuse too? What are their opinions?

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        • Anonymous Post Author
          11 years ago

          You usually say cool, witty things, NotStrangeBird. I'm not used to you being such a dick.
          Let me explain. At first I wrote "my French friend". Then I realised that all the hypercritical types would start yelling,
          "it's your fault for having such a stupid French f#%k for a friend - get rid of him"
          So I realised that the truth was the easiest option. Obviously, I was wrong and there is no solution when it comes to getting rid of the haters .
          So the upshot is that you don't like anyone who has employees?
          Us "job creators?" ROFLMAO.

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          • NotStrangeBird
            11 years ago

            I'm glad I have a fan, but I've alienated more people than Roswell has in my life. Apparently, it's what I do.

            I really wasn't going for being a dick or hater, and if you look, others have said worse on this thread.

            I, like your gardener do enjoy a spirited debate but have a thick skin. I would suggest a thick skin for anyone posting their opinions or thoughts on the internet.

            As far as class warfare goes, if I was going for that I'd say that your patrician lifestyle of gardening and tea parties has obviously left you more sensitive than my life of slaving away digging ditches and mining salt for the man has left me.

            Next time Pierre starts his devil's advocate routine, call him on it. After all, a good debater can argue either side. Make him tell you why the USA is better than Europe. Make him take the opposite side he normally would.

            And conflict is not necessarily antisocial, but it is the essence of drama. Tell him to stop being a drama queen.

            To pull a 180 from what I said earlier, I am actually (in a convoluted way) management, and I try to avoid at all costs being too friendly with the help.

            Not to mean impolite or disrespectful, but if you're paying someone to do some work, they should do the work and mind their business. You should support them as needed and mind your business. It's hard sometimes, but that's how it is in my world.

            You might consider this with future help.

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  • charli.m
    11 years ago

    So don't argue. Problem solved. You're welcome.

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  • disthing
    11 years ago

    "Generally Americans are much less liberal about sex than Europeans", this is not a 'well-established fact', this is subjective and your opinion. His disagreement is perfectly valid.

    "All humans have an ego." Also only psychological theory, not 'well-established fact'.

    Anyway, I do understand your frustration. It's annoying when somebody endlessly contradicts or debates the legitimacy of your opinion. If Pierre the French gardener (character from a sitcom?) finds his urge to argue insatiable and overwhelming just... don't... talk to him. He sounds annoying...

    However, you shouldn't call things 'well-established facts' that aren't 'well-established facts'. At least put the effort into differentiating fact from theory from opinion :)

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  • Justsomejerk
    11 years ago

    Do you have your period?

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  • bananaface
    11 years ago

    Maybe I'm making a stupid point, but didn't it used to be "fact" that the earth was flat? I don't know, I just think playing devil's advocate is usually a very good thing. But yeah, I can see why you're getting annoyed. It's very understandable.

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  • howaminotmyself
    11 years ago

    Your gardener is French?

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  • Darkoil
    11 years ago

    Fucking French know it all twat. You should of fired him.

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  • NormalIsOverratedBeANinja
    11 years ago

    Personally I enjoy a good debate. Are you sure it doesn't have anything to do with him being right?

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  • Terence_the_viking
    11 years ago

    There are over 9000 ways that Americans hate the French.

    You are definetly not a lover of the French.

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    • dirtybirdy
      11 years ago

      This is the 9000th time I've seen you say 9000 today. Good work sir beardicus.

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      • Terence_the_viking
        11 years ago

        Swooping in for the kill?

        I like your style. :)

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        • dirtybirdy
          11 years ago

          I am the prototype for the Super Swooper 9000. Hot off the production line. Wooo!

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  • OswaldCobblepot
    11 years ago

    Your life must be so hard.

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  • mysterymen3000
    11 years ago

    Pierre is fair, he likes to grow his hair. And when he uses nair he gets a chemical burn down there.

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  • dude_Jones
    11 years ago

    He enjoys confrontation and you don't. Let him argue with the plants that he tends to.

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  • Imsupernormal
    11 years ago

    You sound like a retard.

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