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So advocates of pro-choice are all about choice right? It's in the name.
So why don't they wait until the child is 10 or so, and then they can ask it whether it wants to be killed or not? I mean, it can't make the choice in the belly.
So the name says one thing, but their views another. What's with all the confusion? They should be called pro death or something.
Right...kind of like the irony of pro lifers not caring about the life of the child after birth.
And who pays and cares for the child until it turns 10? You, maybe? If you are "pro-life", then do something that is an actual pro for life. Adopt a child from a difficult background and raise it, instead of messing with other peoples decisions and caring more about a fetus for arbitrary reasons rather than people that are already born.
The self-designation "pro-life" is a nice sounding lie, that is all.
That's probably one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard from a pro-birther ever. Yes, I say pro-birth because you don't care about the kids after they're a fetus. Let's get something straight; someone elses abortion has nothing to do with you. It's none of your business, it doesn't affect you. It's a medical procedure many women undergo for a variety of reasons, none of which have to appease you. As a Nurse, I've seen incidents of women having to have an abortion after they had an abnormal pap smear, found out they had cervical cancer, and that they were pregnant all at once. Women who had ectopic pregnancies and had to abort. I've heard cases of women who want to keep their pregnancy, finding out that the fetus has an abnormality and they abort out of compassion and because the fetus most likely will be stillborn or die shortly after birth.
You are not pro-life. You are anti choice. If you were pro-life you would spend an actual empathetic moment imagining these women who already have lives, dreams and are actual independently functioning human beings, having to make that decision. You care more about what a fetus could hypothetically become, than a woman who already exists.
I am personally pro-choice, because even though I'd never abort unless it was a matter of congenital abnormality, I have no right to make that decision for complete strangers who have nothing to do with me. Mind your own fucking business, in short.
Thank you for that response, you saved me the trouble, except I have to point out that people with disabilities are quite rightly upset when an abnormality is seen as the only reason for an abortion, because it's indicating the life of someone with a disability is worth less
Oh using capital letters is SO scary. BLEH.
It's people with your thinking that have irresponsible behaviour as well. It's not a kid now so we can kill it...yes it is killing. Just as a plant grows and you destroy it, just as an embryo is in a seed. The whole point is to not encourage promiscuous behaviour and teenage pregnancy by inculcating the thought that people can get away Scot free by abortion and hold no responsibility for their actions.
Funny you mention plants. I do a lot of gardening and to do it right, you have to cut off flowers and kill seedlings all the time. Sometines they even deprive each other of nutrients. Shoukd we discourage promiscuous behavior in plants? Prohibit bees from getting too active?
I also do gardening and haven't killed any of my seedlings unless they are destroyed by some external forces. Anyway I'm not interested in arguing with your extension of your plant analogy. You too with the presumptions. No I'm not an extremist in thinking like you nor did I say humans should behave like animals. I merely drew an analogy by which you are digressing hopelessly, and of course you know that lol
PS: I forgot to reply to your conclusion jumping in relation to my personal sexual behaviour.
I'm 68 and have been sexually active since the age of 13, at which period in history contraception was virtually non-existent.
I've had two false alarm pregnancy scares in my life when I considered abortion, once when I was 15 and the adult male concerned assured me he wouldn't get me pregnant and much later when I thought I was pregnant to the husband I was about to leave.
I plead guilty to being "irresponsible" as a teenager, that's what teenagers are like, but I regard it as far more irresponsible these days for contraception to not be freely available to anyone who's sexually active or planning to be.
The alternative, as I keep saying, is compulsory motherhood!
Oh but it wasn't compulsory sex either. The child deserves to live regardless of what people of your opinion say or do. You have done abortions, you should be feeling sorry for it not encouraging it. No one is forcing you to take care of the child either.
I have never "done abortions" or had an abortion, but I have campaigned for women's right to control our own bodies and will continue to do so. What "it" should I be feeling sorry?
Some pregnancies do result from compulsory sex - ie rape - or from failed contraception.
I repeat, the alternative is COMPULSORY MOTHERHOOD
No one told u to decide either whether the child should be born or not. That is it's right! There are lots of people who have unwanted pregnancies who later appreciate their children. Basically it's wrong for the mother or father to decide whether the child should live or not.
So the only alternative you can think of for accidental pregnancy is compulsory motherhood, which of course doesn't affect the male involved one iota? Presumably you're therefore in favour of contraception being widely and freely available?
By the way, pregnancy can obviously result from a single act, not necessarily promiscuity, whatever you mean by that, presumably the female's behaviour?
Do you ever give any thought to the subsequent effects on children of being born to a parent or parents who didn't want them?
I'm not thinking of anything you're presuming lol. It's not an ideal world in which people take responsibility but I am encouraging that responsibility should be taken. You commit the action now take responsibility of the child. Stop making presumptions of what I think. Ok let me tell you, I don't think it's the females fault definitely both partners take the responsibility or should be taking it. I don't think you know how many problems there are in every household across the world where some children have to work to support their own parents, where sometimes the parents cannot feed their children and make them live because there is no food. They watch as their kids diminish before them, helpless. The difficulty of life belongs to everyone. Every person has their test and while circumstances can be favourable for some and not for others, the challenges are everywhere. Its true that there are dysfunctional homes but some of the best people thrive through it and succeed. It's not a persons background that should be blamed for their character. We choose to have the personality we do and when that child grows it will know the possibility for change.
Thank you, it's just so frustrating sometimes, how people just disregard an entire side of a debate because they're emotional and refuse to see things logically for what they are.
As I stare at your comment, boredly munching through a packet of Doritos I must say I do feel very emotional indeed. By the way, you just said you're frustrated. Anyway, let's begin.
-"Yes, I say pro-birth because you don't care about the kids after they're a fetus."
You, like the guy who's comment is at the very top, have not the slightest clue of what I care and don't care about.
-"someone elses abortion has nothing to do with you"
Orly? Well, why would I care about the Holocaust? Adolf's business is none of mine, neither is that of the Jews amyrite?
Furthermore, it is my money as a tax payer that is being used to fund the procedures (and treatment for smokers who end up fucking their lungs over).
-You go on to list a variety of reasons for abortion. Well Ms.Nurse, it doesn't change statistics, which say that the majority of abortions are carried out for convenience, or because someone wasn't smart enough to hit the condom store before fucking someone right in the pussy. Abortion ain't contraception M'am.
-"spend an actual empathetic moment imagining these women who already have lives, dreams"
You're a woman. Of course, it's all about you, as always? Forgetting the little dude/dudette inside you that would really like a shot at life? Yeah, that's it.
-It seems you've forgotten that in the vaaaaast majority of cases, the mother would not be harmed by giving birth.
-I am not trying to make decisions for people. I am trying to put to shame and hinder those that have or consider ending their offspring's life for no good reason.
You have to be a male with no concern at all for how a woman feels carrying an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy and then through the childbirth experience.
If you really think women aren't harmed by this you are obviously incapable of either empathy or the ability to face facts.
As the Italian women is supposed to have said to a pope decades ago: "You don't playa da game, you don't get to makea the rules"
All your points can be eloquently summed up as; not your body not your choice. Unless you're gonna be adopting that kid that's supposedly being aborted, or you're going to donate towards foster care services you have no say whatsoever. That's the great part; you don't have to agree. It's still legal. And if it were illegal, women would still be getting them, only more women would be dying from botched back alley procedures. You're prolife when it comes to a fetus but you couldn't give a fuck about the life of the mother, that's quite obvious.
It's not up to you to decide if their "reason" is "good enough" for you, because once more, it's none of your business and has absolutely nothing to do with you.
We're wasting our time. As I said, they're safe from the scissors; of course they're incapable of empathy in this situation.
Murder is murder, and no amount of far-left rhetoric can change that.
Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. Abortion is legal, therefore not murder.
No surrender! I know the going gets tough when people go around like their crap doesn't stink and think they can write the unwritten laws for the sake of their own asses.
But if I, and you, and others join forces - then maybe one day we will live to see the change that our hearts so earnestly seek.
Therefore! Do not break, do not fail, for our time has not yet come. It is our mission, our duty to fulfil the reason our light shines so bright to penetrate the veil of darkness that hinders our emancipation from mental bondage and slavery.
With your master trolling and comedic abilities, and my off the chart wit and spectacular analitical power, what can stop us? Never fail to stand up for what you believe in - and know that thou are not aloneth.
logically for what is, is simply sinful and killing a child for your own sins.
The fact that this comment has received so many up-votes is proof positive that the average intelligence of this site is low.
Without investing too much effort addressing this brain-dead mess.....
"It's none of your business, it doesn't affect you."
Child molestation is none of your or my business; it doesn't affect us. Therefore, by your logic, it is okay.
"You care more about what a fetus could hypothetically become, than a woman who already exists."
We could just as easily use this argument to justify the murder of a 3-year-old child, if the life of said child could be proven to in any way infringe on the liberties of a particular given adult.
Think. Think! THINK!!!
Or maybe, just maybe, it's proof that there are intelligent people who can understand this procedure from a non-emotionally reactive stand point.
Child molestation has nothing to do with abortion, stop comparing apples to oranges.
You could use the argument on a three year old if you want to sound like an idiot. A three year old is an independently functioning organism; a fetus is not, which is the entire fucking point and why there's an age of viability. You don't get to turn women into living incubators because a completely legal and medically acceptable procedure hurts you feelings.
So, what do you guys actually do for these women other than berate them and try to shame them because you're on a religious/moral pedestal above everyone else?
"Child molestation has nothing to do with abortion, stop comparing apples to oranges."
If you were willing to objectively evaluate my argument you would see that it is, in fact, a perfectly valid comparison.
"A three year old is an independently functioning organism; a fetus is not, which is the entire fucking point and why there's an age of viability."
So. What. Killing kids is killing kids. I'm sorry but I simply don't know how to make this any clearer for you.
"So, what do you guys actually do for these women other than berate them and try to shame them because you're on a religious/moral pedestal above everyone else?"
If being vocally opposed to killing innocent people suggests that I speak from a "moral pedestal" then so be it.
I am very much agnostic, by the way.
I am looking at it objectively. You're comparing a child that has been born to a fetus that is developing in the body of an independent organism and calling them the same. They're not the same legally, they're not the same developmentally, the only thing they have is common is that they're the same species.
Interesting that you responded to all of my points but the last one, so I ask again: So, what do you guys actually do for these women other than berate them and try to shame them because you're on a religious/moral pedestal above everyone else?
"average intelligence of this site is low." HOLY SHIT !! You just dropped a MOAB!! (sarcasm) .... Don't expect fact or logic to get upvoted, komment karma has turned me into a troll. Fuck the legitimacy of this site for it died years ago jn its haydays
It's also weird how many pro-lifers support the death penalty...
people are silly
It is not really that odd. A baby has not had a chance to hurt anyone, a criminal has. It kind of like saying why would you not kill a infant but you would kill a convicted rapist of 32 years. Which is completely idiotic. Tell me exactly why you believe we would ever have any logical reason to murder an infant? What crime have they done? Woke you up in the middle of the night to change its diaper? Well yeah if we all followed your train of logic the human race would go extinct right? So I think we should all be a little more intelligent and use our brains, which is something you are not capable of doing clearly. Kind of sad humanity lacks such sense.
Whoa... take it easy there, cowboy.
1) I'm not talking about killing babies or infants. That's insane.
2) I didn't share an opinion on abortion one way or the other,
3) My point - and I was being facetious - is the apparent contradiction that some people label themselves as "pro-life" whilst also supporting the murder and death of others.
Regardless of your political view on the issue, your view on how issues are framed is naive at best. If you were thinking your compelling narrative would change any minds or wake anyone up, you're WAY off the mark. The only people that are going to agree with you are people that already share your view. What's the point in that? (Rhetorical, btw)
What's silly is that you think a few cells are a child. Would a cancerous growth in the womb be something to be kept and nurtured, too?
One hundred percent with you. It makes sense, by being pro-choice they advocate any choice no matter the consequence. Ridiculous. The child deserves to live, it's the parents who made mistakes and now want to rid the child of a chance at life. That's being selfish, as if the child is to blame for anything.
It is POTENTIALLY a baby/child/toddler/teenager etc etc, but it is not any of those things YET. Study some basic biology.
By the way, are you of a gender who could potentially experience an unwanted pregnancy? If not mind your own business MY BODY, MY CHOICE
Yes I am a female thank you very much. I am pretty sure you are the one who needs to study biology. An embryo is a child. An embryo is just an earlier phase of a baby's development. When you get an abortion you are aborting a baby. If an embryo wasn't a baby then why would there be any need to abort? Not aborting an embryo causes the baby to grow more and then eventually be born. When you abort you take the embryo, ( a baby that hasn't quite become a fetus yet), out causing the embryo to die. Is a baby's life less important because he/she is not a toddler yet? Is a 13 year old kid's life less important because he is not 16 year old yet and can't have the possibility of getting a license? NO So what makes an embryo's life less important than a fetus' life just because a fetus is further in growth?
If you can refer me to any reputable biology text which doesn't make clear distinctions between embryo, foetus, baby, child and human being I'll reconsider my opinion: until then I'll stick to science and my firm belief that an adult woman is more important than a collection of cells which has the potential to become a human being.
The reason it's less important is because of that potentiality, which obviously totally distinguishes it from a toddler or a 13 or 16 year old.
I am not suggesting abortions are desirable or that they should be used as birth control BUT the final decision has to be the woman's: as I keep saying, the alternative is COMPULSORY MOTHERHOOD - NO GOOD FOR WOMEN OR CHILDREN IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES
Did you actually just say a fetus inside a woman's body has nothing to do with her...? Yeah, except for the fact it can't survive on it's own outside of her body because we grow an entire fucking vital organ and have our own organs crammed together to make room for it. How can you make such stupid arguments from emotion, and expect people to see your point?
Some basic logic might help your argument but I can't find any in that post. What do you mean by "faulty"?
Abortion is discrimination against a human being based on his or her age and place of residence.
Im pro choice. I believe women should be able to choose not to have sex or choose to use a condom
I am not sure how to reply to this post. There is just so many things wrong with this idea where its not feasible. I do get the point you are making but "Pro choice" means the mom gets to choose if the baby lives or dies, not the child. I think you could possibly use this argument but you are really aiming at the wrong spot.
Here is something that may help you in the future. Now I not saying either way if I am pro or against. I am just pointing out the issues with the logic and structure of your argument itself. You should try stating it as the following.
(I believe that pro choice is wrong since we are not giving the child a choice if they live or die. Since the baby does not have a right we are violating its rights as an underdeveloped human child. If pro choice believe in peoples choice and human rights they would not be stripping away the rights from the child.)
There I hope that helps you in the future. I dont think your post is entirely wrong but the way you structured it is just kind of ridiculous. Sorry mate!
Why are you accepting the erroneous terminology that a foetus or embryo is a child or a baby?
How can you possibly argue that a tiny collection of cells is more important than the adult human being who doesn't want the pregnancy or the birth?
Perhaps becaus a growing child in a womb has a heartbeat, eyes, ears, nose, unique DNA, hands, arms, legs and has a brain with regular cycles of REM activity. For me, all these things point to a 'fetus' being a HUMAN BEING.
A FOETUS IS NOT A CHILD .... why have you put quotation marks around "fetus" (sic) as if there's no such thing?
Is it a child two days after conception when it's too small to be seen except under a powerful microscope? three days? a week? There is a point at which it's a baby, not yet a child, so stop using that as an emotive term: prior to that it's an embryo and then a foetus.
By the way, are you yourself capable of pregnancy and childbirth? If not, mind your own business and allow women to control our own fertility
A fetus is an undeveloped child. A fetus is what happens after you fertilize an egg. That is when your body says "I think its time to start making a baby". This baby is meant to carry on the species. Also if you are going to complain about the term "Child" you can no longer use the term "Childbirth" without seeming like a fucking hypocrite. Since you are killing it before "Childbirth". Which you would deep inaccurate.
That is not the point however, the point is the OP phrased this so stupidly that they cant expect anyone to understand it. My edit made a hell lot more sense than how it was originally written.
I guess calling someone who disagrees with you a "fucking hypocrite" is a good example of the mentality of people who want to impose compulsory motherhood on women who want to decide what happens to their own bodies.
At the foetus stage it is not a child, by the time childbirth occurs it is: I won't descend to your level and express my opinion of someone who can't see the difference in those two completely different things
Put whatevr label you like on it, a fetus is still a growing small human being. 'Fetus' is simply a word intended to de-humanize the growing baby.
By the same argument when does it attain human status? Is it ok to abort a baby 5 days, 5 mins or 5 seconds before its due to be born?
What does my capability of giving birth or not have to do with having an opinion about the issue of a human life? It IS my business!
By the same fallacious argument I should also have no opinion about FMG or sexual abuse of children.