Race relations - again

A Duke University professor, a veteran of 40+ years of teaching with degrees from, excuse me, Harvard University has recently come under fire (not to mention placed on leave) for comments regarding race relations. He compared the situation in the black community to the situation (or lack thereof) of the Asian community. Here it is in summation :

In 1965 the Asians were discriminated against at least as badly as blacks. The racism against "yellow" people just as bad. But they didn't feel sorry themselves, they worked doubly as hard.

I am a professor at Duke University. Every Asian student has a very simple old American first name that symbolizes their desire to integrate. Virtually every black has a strange new name that symbolizes their lack of desire for integration.

I found his insight intriguing and relevant given the current climate of race relations. Is it normal to think we have become far too feminized and sensitive a culture to the point where it blinds us to the truth of what reality is?

Voting Results
63% Normal
Based on 24 votes (15 yes)
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Comments ( 77 )
  • thegypsysailor

    You simplify everything way too much. The 'race relations' you mention in the 60's and 70's were much more cultural differences than racial issues. As the Vietnamese immigrants settled on the Gulf coast, they continued their cultural heritage as fishermen, ignoring the 'American' conservation regulations. This pissed off the American fishermen, as would be expected.
    As for names, what could be more 'integrated' than several generations of being born as American citizens, no matter what you name your children?
    Guess what race these children are; Dweezil Zappa, Sage Moonblood Stallone, Apple Martin, Bronx Mowgli Wentz, Harper Seven Beckham, Bear Jarecki (name, not nickname), Kal-El Cage and lastly, but certainly not least, Pilot Inspektor Lee. I don't think black names have anything on these rather odd names, do you?

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    • Celebrity names have no bearing on the overall discussion. Celebrities don't live real lives and are easily expandable.

      I appreciate your answer.

      I appreciate even more that you mention history. I started this discussion because of cultural differences. And all cultures shall co-exist ?

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      • thegypsysailor

        "And all cultures shall co-exist ?" In a perfect world.

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  • ArmusWasTheFirstTroll

    What does "too feminized" mean?

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    • NeofelisNebulosa

      I thought the same thing! Apparently we live in the 18th century and any traits associated with women are inferior

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      • Who fought the bloody battles of the American revolution? Men. Who drafted the constitution and Declaration of Independence? Men. Who went chin to chin with Hitlers storm troopers and beat back imperial Japan? Men.

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        • donteatstuffoffthesidewalk

          who built the planes tanks and ships what got the men there?

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          • chained_rage

            Other men! :D

            I like this game. More!

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          • Who designed the blueprints for such war machines?

            Your gender is showing through, redneck.

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        • westoptic

          Who started all wars and major conflicts and forced other innocent men to fight and die for corporate interest and greed? Men. Who created slavery? Men. Who has oppressed men of different ethnicities and women since the dawn of time because they consider them inferior? Men. Who has stolen hundreds if not thousands of ideas, research, theses, and work from women and then claimed these discoveries as their own and gotten credit for them from other men? Men. Who are the majority of violent crimes committed by through out history and today? Men.

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        • NeofelisNebulosa

          Are you just trolling right now, patties? I hope so. I mean it's not like women were even allowed to be leaders or soldiers back then. That would have been laughed down. Don't be silly.

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          • I'm actually not trolling. I'm also trying not to be offensive. I think losing gender roles and gender identities is something that will doom this civilization/culture.

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            • NeofelisNebulosa

              Why do you think that? I don't want to be bound by traditional gender roles. If that's the case, I'd rather be a man. No one respected women back then; they thought we were useless except for our ability to bear children. Those traditional roles also force men into being the only ones in dangerous occupations, which isn't fair to men.

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  • shuggy-chan

    Im sure if black just change there name it will all be better, you're so right

    Not like most black people already have "normal" names, or that has no bases of how race stereotypes and ignorance help perpetuate the rift between poor and the rich. And that in places like baltimore over 90% of the black living under the poverty line are concentrated in the same communities, where as only 30-40% of whites are. That wouldn't create an environment where police and community have strong mistrust or anything.

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    • I didn't say this. A professor of politics at Duke University said it. I just regurgitated it here for a discussion.

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  • Arm0se

    wait, so do I vote normal or not normal....or.......

    ???

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    • VirgilManly

      Lol. I'm with you.

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    • Perhaps think for yourself, and make your own observations......

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  • VirgilManly

    I think the part that got him in trouble was probably where he mentioned becoming "too feminized".
    I'm not sure how that actually fit into his argument about race.

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    • Ellenna

      Obviously it doesn't have anything to do with it, but it indicates to me that if he's so conservative about gender he almost certainly is the same about race: sort of shoots down his own claim to be only reporting what some professor said

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      • So, the professor is wrong and his research is discounted because you don't "agree"? Good reasoning.

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    • NeofelisNebulosa

      He wants me to become a more traditional woman (see above comments). Or else, society will collapse.

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      • VirgilManly

        So if you'd start wearing more skirts instead of pants there would be less women named Shaniqua and Latoya?
        WTF?

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        • You can keep being "politically correct" if you want. Even though it's pointless.

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          • VirgilManly

            What's with all the hostility?

            Not to mention that the professors comparison is just plain laughable.

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            • What hostility?

              And calling his viewpoint "laughable" when you clearly don't even understand it, is laughable.

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  • NeofelisNebulosa

    I bet you're behind all these race posts. It's getting old! And I disagree with your use of the word feminized as a derogatory term.

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  • wasd75

    African Americans should not just be told to assimilate. They should be able to live among other cultures and embrace them while maintaining there own cultural heritage.
    I guess it's the melting pot vs Salad theory and some people believe in one while the other believes in the other though.

    I'm a Japanese American if you wonder where my standpoint on this whole thing is.

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    • Have you used the past treatment that Japanese Americans experienced during WW2 as an excuse to not improve your quality of life through your own hard work?

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      • wasd75

        Of course not it would be foolish to say my ancestors were mistreated so I give up on life.

        That being said when the Japanese were brought over and almost used like slaves on the railroads, then thrown into interment camps, then once out Korematsu v. United States should the US thought that was ok, which went with future discrimination. The African Americans had it even worse.

        These events can set a whole race back socially and economically. At that point you have to work hard just be equals to the other races. Even once discrimination and set backs end the damage is done, it takes time to come out of that hole, Even the African Americans haven't fully recovered yet.

        So here is the overall point,minorities in the United states are start from behind and have to work hard to catch up and even once they do they still find set backs. Yes I work hard to live the best life I can, but I shouldn't be forced to nor should anybody. The whole point of America is the freedom to chose.

        If I wasn't clear by hard work I don't mean a typical 9-5 office job, I mean back breaking labor, overtime without pay, and constant discrimination.

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        • I understand the struggles. I truly do. I recommend reading "Ray Jasper's letter". He's a former death row inmate (late). He very succinctly described the situation in America.

          Remember no one promised life was gonna be easy. No one promised it was gonna be fair. Just because it can be for some individuals and not so much for others, isn't an excuse to throw in the towel.

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  • JD777

    I haven't heard that story, but part of what that professor apparently tried to point out are the differences in socio-economic progress in the US from one ethnic group to another. This has been measured in a number of ways, so he probably had good data to support his thinking. People think someone's a racist just because they dare to mention well-supported data - that's bogus. I've lived in a number of places around the US and have made similar observations. In my experience, people of African, Asian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, and Cuban origin have all been suppressed by some form of discrimination now and in the past, but have notably different levels of socio-economic accomplishment. There are also theories on why one group succeeds better or worse than another, but I'll stop short of kicking that beehive!

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    • No, please by all means kick the shit out of it. Take a bat to it!

      This professor isn't some ignorant racist who bided his time for years waiting until he was 80 (and wealthy enough) to spew racist jargon. He just lived 80 years and spent most of it obviously impartially observing what goes on in society. He's found credible statistics that back his observations and instead of not saying anything because it's politically incorrect, he's saying :

      Here look everyone, here are two races, given very similar situations and environments, and one is thriving and the other isn't.

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      • Ellenna

        Similar situations? There must be a huge slab of US history I missed out on over here in Australia. I didn't realise that centuries ago hundreds of thousands of Asians were shipped like cattle to the US and sold as slaves.

        I do know there was indentured labor (similar to slavery) of Chinese workers, but that's not the same thing and nowhere near on the same scale.

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        • JD777

          A little history - Thousands of Asians were brought to the US to provide cheap, almost slave-like, labor in the 1800s. They were often exploited, looked down upon and were openly discriminated against for many decades. After Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, the Japanese in the US were rounded up and kept against their will in internment camps and viewed as the enemy. This anti-Japanese sentiment was strong for decades, lasting up to today for many Americans. Cuba was an arch rival peaking during the Cuban Missile Crisis in the 1960s and relations are only now starting to thaw. Cuban's fled Cuba to nearby US and were largely unwanted here, finding it difficult to find employment or places to live due to immigration biases and discrimination.

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          • Ellenna

            I didn't mention the internment of the Japanese after the US entered WW2 but I did know about it.

            I'm surprised the Cubans weren't welcomed as refugees from Communist Cuba in the 60's, which is surely a totally different issue to the US finally easing up on its longterm blockade of Cuba.

            For any other Australians reading this who don't know our own history, Pacific Islanders were kidnapped or tricked onto ships to work for very low wages in harsh conditions in the Queensland sugar cane fields and there are Aboriginal people still living now who worked for nothing for years on cattle stations. The ABC program Four Corners recently featured an expose of the very low wages and terrible working and living conditions of people from other countries for factory and farm work, so semi-slavery isn't dead in this country either

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            • The professor's point is those Asians don't use their past treatment as an excuse for present conditions. Unlike other ethnic groups.

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  • LuxM4G

    We are all the same as humans, what sets us apart are political, ideological, religious concepts.

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  • regisphilbin

    he's absolutely right, people these days are just too politically correct.

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  • RoseIsabella

    I don't think the teacher deserved any sort of reprimand whatsoever, and yes, I think people in today's society are too overly sensitive. I wouldn't call it a feminization of society though. I just think we're living in a very douchey time. A lot of left-wing people have a very nasty habit of saying stupid things like, "I just can't tolerate intolerance" which would of course thereby make they themselves intolerant!

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    • Exactly, and when you point that out, they get extremely irritated. Because your pointing out the fallacy in their silly philosophy.

      We've almost (almost) reached a point where laziness is considered a "condition". I mean WTF.

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  • Steve2.0

    Do you wear a fedora?

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  • MangoTango

    Hmmm, first thoughts? University professor = dude trapped in the cushy ivory tower = not in touch with 'reality' (whatever reality may be, lol)

    Second thoughts? it is interesting that as far as labeled 'minority' races go, Asians seem to be this model minority, that's the label they get. Some Asians deplore this label. Its amazing how the demographics in gad school switches to a high percentage of Asians. Anyhow, what the heck is the reason behind this? Maybe it is genetic? Let's not discount this. I mean, look at Jackie Chan? I know, I could have used a brainy science type example (lots of medical dr's I know happen to be Asian). So, Jackie Chan? Extremely disciplined. Chinese gymnasts are also extremely disciplined. Chinese laborers seem to be wickedly proficient, quick, and supreme. I'm disregarding how competitive life is in China, S.Korea, and everywhere else. The culture in East Asia bullies for excellence. But, if you've ever spoken with anyone teaching English in S.Korea? You will soon learn that all kids, everywhere, are alike. I have no idea why certain black people in the USA don't do so well. Its not all black people. Just those that seem trapped in dumpy ghetto filled with poverty and all the ills that come with it. Don't you think this professor needs to take this into consideration? Because, in China, violence happens there too. Thugs exist in Japan too (The Yakuza). This label crap? If you've ever heard of the Pygmalion phenomenon? I betcha that it holds true for black people in the USA. Black people get labeled right off the bat from someone of another race. So, this black person has to fight that stereotyped impression from the get go. That's so bassackwards and lacking of a cosmopolitan mindset. To label people like that is fitting for an academic closet racist. Having said that? Have you seen where a lot of black people reside? Poverty hell holes. Yeah, crime is going to surge there. Like, take a look at the UK. Go to Northern England. You see poverty and you find crime,filth, ignorance, and general despair. But, its a bunch of white people living there. Its not race, it's poverty that's the issue. Asians just happened to be an amazing anomaly. People should model their work ethic after these successful Asians. Yes, Asians do integrate well. Its a part of their background in a collective society.

    This question of truth? B.S. There is no 'truth'. Perceptions are subjective. I can say that humans are very tribal. People group based on likeness and whatever. There's no need to like everybody if you don't want to do that. So, as far as being too politically correct these days? To the point of becoming too public relations-ish fake-ish about people relations? Yep. So, to counter that stuff, thank goodness we have comedians that say the 'truth'. Ha ha.

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  • SecretIdentity

    So how do poor white areas compare? There's plenty of destitute white-majority areas where Dave and John live. Why are they poor for generations and what's their literacy and crime rate?

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    • Not as bad as the ethnic group that the Duke professor had the nerve to disparage in his comment.

      Statistical FACT.

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      • SecretIdentity

        I'd like to see those statistics. Not that I do or don't believe you but it would certainly be interesting to compare. Really, based on his view here, why is there even any poor illiterate whites in the US? What is their excuse? That's one reason why his argument is stupid. Another being, many of those poor uneducated people aren't interested in his definition of success. He's basically saying anyone that doesn't want the same thing that he defines as success is a failure. But that's ridiculous. There's just so much wrong with what he said and none of it has to do with it being racist. It WAS racist but that's seperate from why it's technically wrong. He's ignoring culture, personal goals, personal happiness, etc. Ignoring other causes of poverty besides just "not working hard enough". His view, while it can seem right on the surface, is just plain ignorant and doesn't acknowledge anything outside of his narrow vision of how ones life should be.

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        • He is ignoring people being people?

          I'm curious, in a respectable way, how would you define "other causes of poverty" Besides just not working hard enough. I understand the burden of being born in poverty also.

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  • Angryblackman

    What da hell is dis shit?? You sayin we aint integratin, imma bout to integrate my fist into yows head.

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    • Your lack of education shows thru.

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  • snarkygirl

    Insipid names are bad for any race. Don't be Lasagna!

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    • Eh! Atsa Nice!

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      • dirtybirdy

        Ha I was far too amused by that. I think it was due to my spot on accent and the fact that I said it loudly out loud followed by datsa spicy meat'aball! Hehehehehehhe

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        • I have an apron that says it lol

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  • modernism

    Why is he a Duke Professor again? I wouldn't say he's racist; he's simply making ignorant generalizations. As a person with teaching degrees from Harvard, I'd expect better.

    Yes, statistics are statistics:

    - African Americans have the highest poverty rate

    - African Americans has the second highest high school drop-out rates

    - *interest whatever other negative black stat you want to focus on*

    They're facts, and no one is at fault to name them. But it's a different story when it becomes a proclaimed fact for the entire race.

    He's ignoring those African Americans that indeed do graduate high school, and college, and make a better life foe themselves. Sounds like he didn't even bother to glance at the other side of things.

    "Virtually every black has a strange new name that symbolizes their lack of desire for integration. "

    Top ten idiotic things I've read, considering his status. How do names have anything to do with this? I could name my potentially white child Shanquica if I wanted to. I wouldn't care if this professor thought that name was "strange". That's blatant opinion. That in no way inevitably determines their success.

    This professor is confused with what integration is. It DOES NOT mean every person has to be named Stephanie, or John, or whatever "normal" name you want to deem in fact "normal". Such a narrow mind-set. As if the entire world is the great white America and everyone must conform to it. Ridiculous.

    There can be diversity in integration. Excuse me - there SHOULD be diversity in integration. Race doesn't determine integrity.

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    • The names thing aside, which you do have a point on, even though I think it's funny they choose these absolutely ridiculous monikers.

      He's not ignoring the successful blacks, he's just not mentioning them because it's not the point of the article. That's not racist. He doesn't have to glance at the other side of things, he's making an argument comparing two separate ethnicities (Asian and black) with very similar PAST (key word) histories and overall experiences in regards to discrimination and race bias and pointing out the fact, THE FACT, that one has moved beyond the discrimination they faced and not used (or continually use) it as a reason to sit on their fat, lazy ass and do absolutely nothing productive.

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      • modernism

        I specifically said he wasn't racist, as far I know the professors ideals. The point that I was making is that he is blatantly generalizing.

        "one [race] has moved beyond the discrimination they faced..."

        That's lumping all (or most) black people, and Asian people for the matter, in one group unrelated to race. Those that are black and lazy are not lazy because they are black. Those that are Asian and productive are not productive because they are Asian.

        That is suggesting that race inevitably lends itself to something other than physical attributes (or other birth given aspects) - which it does not. How the past affects someone's efficiency isn't based on whether they are black, white, or Asian. That's based on the individuals interpretation of history and whether or not they let it affect them in the first place.

        Seeing that you repeated and capitalized "THE FACT" makes it seem like you're pretty certain with yourself and the professors statement. I disagree with that. There is no such "FACT" stating that black people wallow in their past and that Asian people don't. Or vice versa. Considering both races discriminated pasts are arguably equal, the amount of melanin in someone's skin does not lend itself to the "indisputable case" of productivity.

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        • I appreciate your answer, you have "political correctness" broken down, to your appreciation anyway. The professor's point is what he has observed in 80 yrs of life.

          He has seen the difference between past treatment of said ethnic groups, and also seen how one ethnic group, given equal disadvantages, have thrived. And has questioned it.

          And I have done the same by raising this discussion here. So, the question remains...why the disparity? Why the statistical difference?

          As you stated, why the individual interpretation of history, and more importantly why has said history had such an effect on ethnic efficacy?

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          • modernism

            As for the statistical difference, I think that's due to the fact that race and adequacy aren't related. His observations aren't at fault here, his theory is. For example, I could conduct an experiment to measure homicidal tendencies in blue eyed people compared to that in brown eyed people (to the same proportion). We're going to pretend that all the people that I'm observing have had indirect connections as victims of abusive behavior. Let's say that I come to the conclusion that blue eyed people typically exhibited more tendencies than their brown eyed counterparts.

            K. That's fine. That's a hypothetical fact. But what I'm not going to say here (or imply for that matter) is that they have these homicidal tendencies BECAUSE they have blue eyes.

            "Ohh, these blue eyed people. They have no morals. Brown eyed people look past their indirect abusive pasts and keep in touch with their ethics, but nooo - not these blue eyed folks."

            Do you see how ridiculous that is? It sometimes takes something on a smaller scale to realize how idiotic it is to use race as a reason for competence (or lack thereof).

            I'm not going to ignore the fact that there are significant differences in general ethnic efficacy - there is. Why? I wouldn't know.

            The only difference between the professors ideas and mine is that I'm keeping everything relative. He seems to be using unrelated aspects as justification for his observations.

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            • He's using 80 yrs of life to make justification for his observations. And I wouldn't pretend to assume he is right or wrong.

              I can't express how much I enjoyed your contribution to this post/discussion.

              I also want to encourage your thinking and objectivity. Please influence others in a positive way.

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  • dirtybirdy

    Yaa I don't think he should have got in trouble either. The world is turning into a bunch of pussies and that's not as awesome as it sounds! I don't get involved in these types of discussions cus I don't know nothin, but it keeps making me think of something my pop pop always used to talk about, he referred to it as 'rewarding failure' and I saw a recent newspaper that brought it up again.

    A particular town in this great state is about 95% black and 3 out of 4 students can't read at grade level. That may account for some of the crazy names. There's also only about 50% graduation rate yet the amount per student is over $30,000. Nearby towns spend a whole lot less per student and their percentages are way higher. I dunno, but for whatever reasons, it seems that not everyone wants to get themselves out of the rut. Let's blame other people!

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    • You do know something and your opinion is valued. I don't pretend to have a feasible solution, but I'm certainly not just going to keep saying what "sounds nice" though it flies in the face of what reality is. If we keep rewarding failure as your grandfather said, eventually those that aren't failing are gonna get sick of propping up those that are alright with it.

      And this professor should not have got in trouble. It's "freedom of speech", not "freedom of speech as long as it's politically correct".

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      • dirtybirdy

        We're goin to hell in a handbasket at lightning speed and I don't know if these issues will ever be resolved. Not in our lifetime for sure. I guess it's easier for people to play the victim than to bust their ass to make something of themselves. Or to at least be able to say they support and take responsibility for themselves. But that's apparently way too much to ask, in fact it's degrading and racist to suggest that previously oppressed races let go of the past.

        Umm..it was only maybe last year that I figured out PC wasn't referring to personal computers, and that wasn't long after I figured out that PC meant personal computer... :D

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        • You basically just described how I feel. And here is basically the only place I can voice it. I get it, it's easier to steal what you want than it is to earn it. Doesn't mean anyone should do it.

          I never gave much thought to PC when I was younger, I guess now that I'm older it seems more important. Paying taxes probably has something to do with it.

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          • dirtybirdy

            I hear ya, deej. I'm one of those people who could easily, but unjustly point fingers and blame people for where I'm at in life. I know its different because I'm a white chick, but the same basic principle. And seeing scumbag junkies in Seaside abuse the shit out of the system has given me more insight on the level of fucktardery that people are capable of and I can't stand it. I could probably qualify for all sorts of assistance but I have more pride than that. At least I worked for the few things that I have and that makes me feel good. I digress.

            So many terms that are so prevalent today never entered my brain when I was younger. I can't help but know them now since they are constantly shoved down our throats. I stopped watching the news and most tv years ago because I was sick of all the bullshit. I just can't take it anymore!!! Therefor I know very little about current events, I just make observations. And I couldn't explain what a Democrat is or a Republican and things like that. That's half the reason I consider myself a dummy, but perhaps I'm gauging my intelligence on the wrong scale. Hmm..

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            • No, you sell yourself short. And time is all telling birdy.

              Those political terms will lose their meaning in time.

              Survival of the fittest.

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