Religious people make better citizens - or not
| Yes | 62 | |
| No | 197 |
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taciturn
Obviously, there are good and bad citizens regardless of religious affinity or background.
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mtg710
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joker42359
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Jweezee
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ChasingAfterPond<3
You'd be suprised. I'm religious and I don't think I'm better than anyone else. People should be judge for who they are as a person, not for whether they are religious or not. I'm dating an atheist and I don't care, he is an amazing guy and I wouldn't change a thing about him.
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Jweezee
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daydreamer394
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Yumazing
I'm Agnostic and I like to think of myself as a good citizen. I do charity work and pick up litter and talk to my parents' neighbors. :)
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[Old Memory]
Religion's greatest contribution to society is in teaching people how to act in a civilized society, though shalt not kill, steal, etc...
Beyond that its a bunch of nonsense. Anyone who thinks that they are going to heaven or hell when they die are just delusional.
You can pray if you want to and it comforts you BUT if you pray in one hand and shit in the other tell me which one fills up first.
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[Old Memory]
What I've noticed is that the most hating group of people is usually religious people. Not saying all religious are that way though.
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dom180
Define a "good citizen". A religious person is, by and large, more likely to help out in the community and do charity work. Of course some Atheists do this too, but they are less likely to.
That does not make the religious better people because many of them will only be doing it because the Bible and their religion tells them to. A good person would do it because they want to.
On average religious people probably do make better citizens, but on a case-by-case basis they are probably no better than non-religious citizens.
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bananaface
Even if it is just the Bible that has lead them to do good deeds, that doesn't mean that they are not good citizens, even if they wouldn't have done it in the first place.
How many people would be "good citizens" anyway. I doubt many would. The only reason most people are is because they have been raised by people and taught these values, and had influences on them which make them a good citizen. If the Bible happens to be one of those influences, then I don't think that makes that person any less of a good citizen, because they still believe that what they're doing is good; just as much as an atheist or anybody else doing it!
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dom180
I completely agree, hence the distinction between a "good citizen" and a "good person". A good citizen would help out the community for either self-serving or altruistic reasons.
A good person would only do it for altruistic reasons. Perhaps it is possible to be both.
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bananaface
It's just your second paragraph sounded like you were saying that a person only does it because of their religion, not because they agree with it. Which I disagree with.
I think that everything a person does is selfish to some extent, the only reason I volunteer is because it makes me happy. Which is selfish.
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Huh? Are you serious? Where did you get these 'facts' from and what religion are you talking about, there's more than one religion, ya know. There's also many, many more ways than charity work to be a good person. A lot of people who do charity work are just doing it because they've been ordered to by law (community service), tax evasion, and other self-serving reasons.
"The statistically verifiable reality should come as no surprise to those who have first hand experience with criminal and religious sociology:
1. The majority of Americans (85%) have a stated religious preference.
2. The majority of American prisoners (between 80 and 100%, depending on the study consulted) also have a stated religious preference"Comment Hidden ( show )-
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taciturn
So 85% of Americans are religious and around 80% of American prisoners are religious? Isn't that kind of... obvious? Not to mention, you deride his lack of facts and then state that most people involved in charity are doing it for "self-serving reasons", without backing that up. Just saying.
Not that I agree with dom180 either, as I haven't found any evidence to back that up. I stand by my initial statement that religion has no direct correlation with good or bad citizenship. There are good and bad people in any group.
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And I didn't say 'most people', I said 'a lot of people'.
I can provide information to back this up, although as for court-ordered community service, it's going to be tough to provide exact specifics as the laws and sentences vary so widely from state to state. We can do an average though. Let's take DUI's, that's one of the more common arrests that net a sentence for community service.
"The total number of hours of community service that a person can be ordered to perform varies from state to state and also depends on the conditions of the arrest. Some states require a minimum sentence of at least 50 community service hours for a first-time conviction. In other states, the sentence for a first-time conviction can be as little as 24 hours or as much as 100 hours.
Repeat offenders receive harsher penalties. For third time offenders, it is possible to be ordered to serve anywhere from 150 to 600 hours. This, of course, is in addition to other fines, penalties, and jail time"
DUI arrests by state for 2008: http://www.numberof.net/number-of-dui-arrests-per-state/
So, use those figures to make a reasonable conclusion. Littering and graffiti are also commonly dealt with by a sentence to community service. Look at your state's laws, you can see the sentencing guidelines for any given crime.
I got 24 hours of community service for an APC, and when I've been to court I've personally seen numerous people get sentenced to hours. Go sit in on court and watch, it's open to the public. When you've 'been there' you can pretty much recognize who is just putting in their time, and who's there for charity. VERY obvious.
Go to Charity Watch to see how charities spend their money, many have bad ratings. Charity Watch breaks it down by how much of your money goes to salaries, solicitation, and actual aid to people in need.
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Obvious? Yes and no. One could think that the 15% that don't claim a religion are the ones in prison, but that's not the way it is. It's the religious folks that are in prison. I pointed that out because it's one of the only solid statistical facts to support the theory that religious people aren't 'better ctizens'.
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taciturn
Exactly, but it was worded such that it seemed to try to imply a connection between "criminal and religious sociology", when really, it's an incredibly obvious statistic. I'm sure 80% of people who buy orange juice are religious too. There is no categorical connection between the two. That's my only point.
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It's not exactly obvious though. If religious people were better citizens, then they would make up a lower percent of prison population.
It's all about proportions.
Men make up roughly 50% of the population, but about 92% of the prison population. Are you saying you can't draw conclusions from that? I don't see how you can't connect the whole proportional thing. If religious people were 'better' then they'd have a disproportionately lower number of inmates as compared to the general population.
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UnrecognizableMan
Don't a lot of priests and ministers go around prisons? And once you've been sentenced to jail you might be looking for some forgiveness! I don't think the number of religious peoples in prisons vs non-religious is a fair statistic to use.
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mizeka
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dom180
I wasn't talking about facts. I was just stating that my impression, which could be wrong, was that religious people probably do more charity work than non-religious people, and charity work is the way I had chosen to measure good citizenship. I did mention that people who do charity work do not always do it for good reasons, but I don't think that really matters when measuring good citizenship.
Your way of measuring good citizenship, crime rates, is also a valid way to measure it, and yields different results to my beliefs. You may be right, I may be right.
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chubbawubba69
Where are your statistics to back up your claims that atheists are less likely to help out in the community?
If, as you claim, that religious people on average make better citizens, how do you explain prison statastics. Statistically a Christian is more likely to end up in prison in the US than an atheist. What I mean by this is that the percentage of prisoners who are atheists is lower than the percentage in the population. This is backed up by studies.
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dom180
I have already explained that I have no statistics. It is just an impression that I get, and I'd be very surprised if I was wrong.
Atheists are more likely to be educated and middle class. So less likely to be in prison. It is not directly connected to religious beliefs, but levels of education and class.
For this reason I do not believe that crime stats are the best way to measure good citizenship.
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chubbawubba69
Then what does being a good citizen mean? People who commit crimes certainly detract from the overall well being of society and are therefore worse citizens than those who do not commit crimes.
I realize that socio-economic factors play a larger role than religion here; this doesn't change the fact that criminals are more likely to be believers.
A different note; Look at someone like Bill Gates. He contributes literally billions of dollars to charities and he is an atheist. Religious charities often have strings attached when they help people. Much of the time you have to buy into their dogma to be awarded aide.
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anonymousbitchhhh
I find a lot of religious people are bigots because the bible basically makes them. Not every religious person is horrible, rude, racist, homophobic, etc. But that's with every ethnicity. Not every non religious person is horrible, rude, racist, homophobic, etc. It depends on the person, not their religion. So this question is kind of null & void just because it really depends on the person them self, not their religion.
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juniperlei
Religion is what people made up to make sense of the world some have some good moral values but that's all they are good for, people already pick and choose anyways like Christians "homosexuals cant get married its against the bible >:( but I can eat my bacon,wear my mini skirts, and have sex with everyone of the opposite sex as much as I want, and get divorces as much as I want those parts of the bible are totally obsolete now :D" Its stupid I have no respect for people who pick and choose and then condemn people for being different, religions are stupid and I bet most people haven't even read the books they say we should follow, they create hate, as much as they give us morals, but are there good religious people well I believe no one is good or bad it is social understanding of those concepts that make things good or bad
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sanan22
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timisagodamongmen
Every religion is stupid, all it does is blind people to true issues. Religion is only useful for... nothing
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daydreamer394
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1000yrVampireKing
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1000yrVampireKing
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800imawesome
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ChasingAfterPond<3
I am religious, but I don't think that is the basis of someone being a better citizen than someone else or not. People should be judged for who they are as a person, not for whether they are religious or not. I personally feel that whether someone is a good person or not is based off of their personal morals, values, actions, and the way you often times treat people.
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[Old Memory]
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randomguy111
I used to have to go to church when I was younger and the people at that age (around 14-15) were still just as bad as any other person. But I think they hated me because I found it so boring to the point hat in sunday school I would just walk out and go and play football instead.
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Megid
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SoccerStud88
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[Old Memory]
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daydreamer394
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