Ask Your Question today
Is it normal that I get pissed off when men try to tell women what we need to do (i.e., how to dress, how to or whether to wear makeup, how to carry ourselves in public, what to say or not to say, etc.) for them to want to fuck us, like getting men to want to fuck us is ever an issue? Get over yourselves, guys.
WOW, did you just generalize all males into one group, thats so... dare I say.. SEXIST.
Really though, I get what you're saying, but chill.
Yeah but it was addressed to "guys" as in "dear target audience, you are an asshole"
I'm glad you picked up on that, but the post itself is unapologetically bait. That said, not arbitrarily so. This isn't a shit post. This isn't an over educated woman being hysterical. This is a cultural conversation that will be compiled into a free e-zine that will used for community outreach purposes. It's only my responses and the original post, a one sided conversation, as men so often enjoy at the expense of women, so no one I'm responding can say shit because, guess what, most of the time women aren't in a safe enough place to say shit when men act like they do in the situation the post describes, which is real and more common than a lot of the men and some of the women commenting here thought and probably still think, since I'm 'another dumb feminist' as one guy so smartly put it. That guy doesn't believe in feminism because as he put it, most other men don't like to listen to feminists, so he's one to follow. If you think I'm being harsh, go read the comments and then read the responses I wrote. I was at it for a full eight hours yesterday and I haven't even begun to look at the 80-something comments that have happened since this time last night.)
Honestly, i would never do any of the things you described unless you were going to a job interview in a stripper costume. And one sided conversations go both ways, as women so often do the same thing to men. One sided conversations are pointless endeavors that do little more than insult both sides, and i don't enjoy them in the slightest.
Feminism and humanitarianism should be able to co exist but often can't as an extremely vocal (but probably small) percentage of feminists are radical assholes with nothing better to do than complain about video games and men not wanting their testicles in uncomfortable positions. If feminists had more actual, provable cases of systemic abuse rather than generalizing men into sexist inhuman slobs that treat men like shit, then less men would be against feminism.
Just don't worry about it.
Yeah I get it's annoying. Especially when men tell women that shaving is super important to keep a relationship, or a woman isn't worth it if she has terrible fashion sense.
Who cares if bitches (not all men, just the bitch ones) expect us to be a certain way so their dick can get hard; that's their issue once they realize that life isn't Burger King, bitches can't have it their way.
Just be yourself, and look on the brighter side: Women are currently free to live their lives and make their own decisions without needing a husband, and it's only getting better; because women are running their own businesses, men are learning to respect their female co-workers more and more.
Thanks. This post and my responses to a lot of the comments are being used in a free book that will hopefully contribute to continuing the work of making things better. I'm not saying everything is horrible. Things have come so far from when I was a kid, but because feminists worked really hard and have been relentless. That said, I've had a lot of really depressing conversations with the men who've commented. Seems like very very few of them can even understand what I'm talking about, even when I'm very specific about context and details.
I understand, and, agree. When a guy tells "his woman" what to wear, do, or how to be, it comes off as controlling and even threatening. To that, though, I'd say to the woman..It's up to you to stay with him or not. You're more than free to stop being with the guy.
I'm not talking about abuse within the context of a relationship, which is what you're describing there. That's abusive behavior. I'm talking about unsolicited advice from men who just feel entitled to tell me how I think I should look and by no means am I the only woman this happens to. It doesn't matter what the woman in question looks like, many, many, many men will feel entitled to tell her what he thinks of her appearance and how she should change it to be more appealing to men, nevermind what the man in question looks like himself. This is an issue of entitlement, autonomy, and respect. Honestly, how often do men who don't know each other tell each other how they should look so that women will find them attractive? Would you shout that advice at a man you see walking down the street, say, on his way home from work or the gym, or stop him in the grocery store when he's just picking up a few things? This kind of stuff happens to women all the time. I wasn't literally asking if it's normal that I'm pissed off about it. I'm saying this behavior is not normal and needs to stop.
I remember once seeing a car with one of those "No fat chicks" bumper stickers on it, and when I passed the guy I looked over to discover that he was an absolute toad. No doubt the "fat chicks" of whom his bumper was referring to most likely wouldn't give him the time of day. The whole incident was more comical than anything. I like to think that wherever that stupid bastard goes he's spreading laughter as people are probably laughing at his sorry ass after seeing him once they've read his bumper sticker.
Well you don't have to do this. Some guys care more about the personality.
And both genders care about appearance, like we could even see it in a way like:
Seriously girls...
Is it normal that I get pissed off when women try to tell men what we need to do (i.e., how to dress, how to or whether to wear personal care products, how to carry ourselves in public, what to say or not to say, etc.) for them to want to fuck us, like getting women to want to fuck us is ever an issue? Get over yourselves,ladies.
You can't be seriously suggesting there's the same pressure on men about their appearance as there is on women? Check out ads on tv, in magazines, on the internet, on billboards, everywhere; see if you can find dozens of magazines for teenage boys telling them how to look and behave to attract girls ......... I could go on but I don't think you're worth any more of my energy
Yes, however who are the consumers of those Ads, shows, and magazines? Other women. It's women that created that market, not men. Yes, men prefer women in shape, that's a reality, it can't be avoided, it was the mass want of women to achieve that, most likely to catch some stud themselves that is successful. You cannot blame men for the marketplace women created, that is not on us that is on the women that done so.
Why isn't there so much of it for boys? Well, on TV there's plenty of it, but why is it not as many? Because men care far less about their appearance, because they haven't given much of a marketplace for it, and in areas they do give a marketplace for it you deffo see it produced, such as physical fitness magazines which plaster well-built men in the front.
Let's not forget that there's a whole marketplace for romance novels which very much does fall in to showing how men should be sexy, but again men don't give much of a rats ass and women fill that marketplace.
Also, why come in on someone who didn't ask for you opinion and then say you're not going to waste any more of your energy as if they were just waiting for you to shine some input they never asked you for, it comes off as egotistical.
No, that market and those beauty standards were created by advertising and marketing agencies that were run by men, starting in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, to foster insecurity in and sexualize women in order to exploit them as consumers. That happened because of the industrial revolution and eventually intensified with the advent of suburban sprawl, the standardizing of electricity (hello time saving appliance) and television, which incorporated targeted advertising virtually from its beginnings as a live performance medium.) It's an intersectional phenomenon and it was embraced by many women because of technology and industry that gave women more time due to less labor in the home (washing machines, gas and electric ovens, refrigerators and equally importantly, manufactured food, particular food mixes and prepared foods, which not only took much of the labor out of cooking, but also the thinking, as well as buying raw ingredients and it's also important to note that the rise of supermarkets and fast food also had a particular effect on how women lived) and because men were the primary breadwinners, often working long hours, women became the primary consumers. I'm sure the trope of the wife spending the husband's money existed before the post-war consumer shift and the second wave of the women's movement (which was sandwiched between the African American movement and the LGBTQ+ movement) but as manufactured clothing became cheaper and make up and personal care products advanced technologically, there was a boom that was fueled by the post-WWII economic boom. WWII, as you might now, was the first time many women ever held jobs outside the home. The autonomy and freedom of movement the absence of a male dominated workforce provided during the war contrasted sharply to the increasingly empty lives women led due to advancing industry and technology, leading many women to outright refuse to continue on in the role of housewife. Women entering the workforce fed the rights movement, but a lot of women adopted beauty products and fashion in order to navigate the still male dominated work force. Mad Men is not an exaggeration, but later on you get women like Helen Gurley Brown, who was editor in chief at Cosmopolitan and is kind of credited with introducing the world to the trope of the sex positive single career woman. Sex in the City tries to be HGB, but what it really succeeds in is demonstrating how complex and often unsatisfying that is for many women who focus on self and career because it's an identity born out of capitalism and is at odds with the traditional roles of women in Western society, which of course, haven't died because they are supported by the accepted family structure, which is our primary cultural understanding of human relationships and interactions. I get what you're saying about romance novels. It's a valid thing, but maybe if women were more, as a matter of cultural course, encouraged and supported by the men in their lives and a male dominated society to live lives that weren't largely mediated through their relationships with men, which is reinforced by family, religion, and culture, as well as capitalism, (manufacturers, advertisers, and entertainment media are all intentionally fostering insecurity in women to stimulate consumerism, remember?) women wouldn't have the desire to pick out men's flaws and if more men treated the women in their lives as friends and equals (and I'm definitely not saying this is everybody, or that men should treat women as men, but as equally important, i.e., their needs matter just as much as yours and you put as much work into meeting their needs as they put into meeting yours,) a lot of those women wouldn't feel the need to even read novels about idealized men. Most women don't actually want a man who looks like Fabio. Fabio is fucking ridiculous. p.s. I love when men, (and I'm seeing it a lot on this site and this post,) call women egotistical for offering unsolicited criticism when they're doing the same fucking thing. Nobody fucking asked you what thought, either. Please consider the hypocrisy in that.
I'm not too fussy when it comes to grammar and what not, and although I can't say I've taken a liking to you, nor am I going to say it takes part in measuring your intelligence, could you please put what you say in paragraphs? It makes it easier to seperate points.
Those market places were created by people, let's just assume male (although today it certainly isn't exclusive to males), to reach a consumer group to make a profit. The industry would not of been sustainable if women were not interested, nor would it be sustainable if women did not stay interested. If some women became interested due to insecurity then that's their issue, not the free-market's. They didn't create it to make women they don't know insecure, they made it to make money, and the reason why it progressed so much is because women enjoy purchasing and viewing the products the industry creates. You're trying to blame men for what women buy, which not only devalues women as humans by taking away their agency but implies they're too emotionally immature to make decisions on what they buy to fit their wants.
Apologies but I'm drunk. I'd usually be able to pick out points from single blocks of text but not when I'm drunk so, on my part, I'm finding it difficult, so bare with me.
You say something about if men encouraged women to live life as if it isn't reliant on involvement men, and to that I say it isn't our jobs to tell you how to live your life. Sure, if a man is saying you need to live life by pleasing a man, he's an idiot and an asshole, but it isn't my place to teach you otherwise, I have my own life to lead. Aswell as that, I know for a fact women in general know this, that they don't need a man to live. The fact is that they want a man to live with, it's not a need, it's a want, a very strong want, same goes with men in regards to women, aswell as gays with gays and lesbians with lesbians, we all have that strong want to have that intimate connection to go through life with.
But what you said about romance novel men is interesting. You essentially imply that if men were better than they are then women wouldn't need romance novels, as a way to justify why women sexualize men in romance novels. You're essemtially saying that the reason why women sexualize men in romance novels is because average men don't meet the standard of the men in romance novels, and to that I have to say you're arguing against yourself. Your talk about the beauty standards can go along the same path. Men like these sexy women in magazines and TV because women don't meet the attractiveness standards men would prefer.
To make it more clear, you're saying:
The reason why women prefer men in romance novels is because they meet women's standards, even if they're very hard to obtain by the average male, regardless of if it makes men insecure.
Yet, say the reason why men prefer sexy women on TV and in magazines because they meet men's prefered standards of beauty is bad because it makes women insecure.
As for the hypocrisy part. Yes, you did ask me. You made a post on a public forum to the entire userbase. When I said it I was regarding someone who was responding to post directed to someone other than themselves. It's not hypocrisy.
I like to go to the feminist magazine websites. Just to read some of the overt hate mongering they promote. But what is also funny is most of the ads on those sites are for clothes.
If you don't understand why some women are angry, I'm just going to stare uncomfortably for awhile. Just because you find someone's emotions unattractive or you don't feel personal responsibility for your part in perpetuating their oppression, doesn't invalidate their feelings or their argument. Also, do you not wear clothes? People wear clothes. What do you think those magazines should advertise, artisanal wooden nesting dildos? Organic vulva polish? The deluxe edition of the new Tori Amos album? I really want to know what you think.
Ok, you need to stop conflating women with feminists. Most women don't subscribe with this train of thought. When you speak of your outrage and claim women in general feel the same you aren't being honest. Most women don't think like you, you're speaking from the feminist mindset, not the population of women's mindset.
I'm with you on that point. I am a female, but definitely not feminist. Schovonistic males annoy me, and so do feminist woman.
I feel like people are just caught in this perpetual cycle of wining and victim mentality and have to blame someone else for what they lack in life.
I strongly feel people are more than capable of getting whatever it is they want, but yet, majority of people have to place blame on others.
Yes, to acknowledge the original post, someone trying to tell you how to dress, think, or act to be wanted is annoying I guess, but that's not limited to just men...theres no victims here. That's why you CHOOSE who you have in your life and who you don't. That's why you CHOOSE what you will think, wear, and the way you will act. Nobody is daddy we are all adults lol
SOME women. I specifically said SOME women. Some women are feminists. I'll definitely check what I've written but I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass, it comes from twenty years of diligent research and ground work and conversations with different kinds of people from all over the world. I'm not purporting in any kind of remotely absolute way to know how anyone else thinks or feels, but speaking for myself, my identity as a feminist doesn't negate my identity as a woman. Clearly not all women are feminists. Clearly not all men are rapists. I shouldn't have to continually state that I know these things.
Thanks for totally missing the point and womansplaining like a fucking champ. This is pretty much what I was expecting.
To be fair there's a lot of pressure on gay guys... not so much straight ones
It's true, but some gay men treat women even worse than some straight guys do. They're affected by misogyny, too, in a lot of the same ways, but they also have male privilege and that can give a guy who feels threatened and needs to lash out at someone a lot of power to use against women with even fewer consequences that straight men (sometimes) face because if they're not interested in us sexually, why isn't it okay for them to violate our autonomy, talk over us and down to us, and on top of that, insult our appearance by upholding misogynist standards of beauty that not every woman can or wants to fulfill? I fully admit that I know this not only because it's happened to me but because I'm trans and back in the day when I thought I was a gay guy, I did some of this stuff to women and it's not an easy thing to forgive myself for. Just because we're oppressed doesn't mean we can't be oppressors, right?
Or what and how often to wax or chests, how often and how to shave our faces, How to cut our hair and how much mouse to put in.
Men chose to take on those things. I was there when it happened. Most of the straight guys I knew couldn't wait to shave their pubes. Women in their lives might have encouraged them to try it, but those guys, like most guys, aren't going to do something like that if it's not more for them than someone else. It's quite the opposite for women. There's a lot of cultural pressure for women to shave their legs, underarms and now, genitals, though thankfully that trend seems to be retreating. As for how often you should shave your face, that comes from standards of professional dress that were created before women even entered the workforce in significant numbers. They might be enforced or supported by women, but men as a population aren't expected to make themselves beautiful or sexually appealing in order to secure or maintain employment because they're primarily valued for their labor, but it's appalling how often women still are, particularly in work environments where women are carrying labor for men and the men are routinely given credit for the work.
You really need to read what you post. Do you just write stream of consciousness and post it raw?
Besides the numerous times you have contradicted yourself in this post, your point was that women are told how they should look. Later you pretty much stated it was in reference to social situations. What I'm saying is men have standards to which they are held as well.
Numerous time you have stated your rage at being told my men how to look. Then you said "Women in their lives might have encouraged them to try it, but those guys, like most guys, aren't going to something like that if it's not more for them than someone else." Same with women.
Women choose to go to such extremes of neoteny. Do you were shave your legs? Why? It is not required by law. If you show up to work without it you won't be sent home. If you continue to do so and someone complains you can run to your boss or HR and cry sexual harassment. If I show up to work without having dragged a razor over my throat, I get sent home. If I continue I get fired. And there is no recourse for me. No law protects my rights. I have no right to complain. It's in the employee handbook.
The very standards in society you are fighting against you disregard when it comes to men, But when it comes to women then, how dare they.
And did you just reduced men down to being only useful for physical labor? Then in the very next breath say men are altogether useless because women do everything?
Of course I'm just writing. It's the internet, not a dissertation. How do you think I've posted this many replies in 48 hours? And how did you think I should be responding? I did not contradict myself in the response you're referencing. If you don't understand nuance and context and take the time to read the thread, I'm not going to hold your hand or feed into your reactivity. I'm also not going to apologize for knowing what I know. I don't owe you anything.
Do you know what those words mean. Nuanse? You are the only person swearing on this post. Context. Read my posts. Consistent context. As, in I hold to the same meaning not webel wable to fit my inane ramblings into the topic at hand.
And men do not owe you anything.
Thanks for totally missing the point and mansplaining like a fucking champ. This is pretty much what I was expecting.
How nice of you to delete your reply, that's a great start to turn you into a better person :)
I didn't delete it. I don't know what you're talking about. Don't make the mistake of thinking I will apologize to you or withdraw any statement I've made in this thread. I think before I speak and I know who I am. I don't care if you don't think I'm a good person.
Or maybe some second and third wave feminists: we are everywhere you know
That's not how it works and thinking to be and actually being good is a huge difference (and everyone sees things in other ways (like your reply was the wet dream of a feminist but questionable for ohers) but I would actually love being you. I always think how things would be perfect towards most people and not just a specific group which I'm in. That would be awesome.
I'm not interested in utopia, I'm actively working in my life towards dismantling misogyny, which will not happen in my lifetime, but it's the core of why I exist on earth in this place in this body right now. You don't actually know anything about me and the work I do in the world with people of all kinds, so please hold any judgments about my quality as a person. I'm not trying to attack anyone. It's just really hard to get men to listen at all and nearly as hard get other women to speak up about their own experiences. When you're up against something that is insidious and the people who perpetuate it often aren't aware because their privilege acts as a barrier, sometimes you have to be tricky to get a conversation started, but I didn't arbitrarily tell you to fuck off and the comment is still on my page, so maybe you or someone else clicked hide? I honestly don't know all the ins and outs of this site yet. I'm just witnessing a lot of men saying really disgusting things to and about women and speaking up about it.
Looks like 90% or more of the responses are 'but what about the men?' or 'nuh-uh' or 'why this is actually women's fault'. Jesus Christ, you posed a legitimate issue and it can't get addressed for what it is.
I think part of the problem with posts like yours is that men see it as a personal attack and most men honestly do not believe they participate in what you describe because it's often not a conscious purposeful behavior. Few people are willing to really critically examine themselves, thus you just get these knee-jerk reactions.
This issue you posed is something that evolves from childhood, differences in how boys and girls are raised, the emphasis on appearance for girls from an early age, etc. Some of the comments act as if we are raised in a vacuum and just appear into the world as rational, free thinking adults like magic one day, no influences at all and everyting
we do is pure free will.
Women might not admit this happens to them because it's so normalized they might not even notice it anymore or might not see it as being as bad as it really is. Or maybe they fight admitting it because it's unpleasant to confront the fact that (in general, among society at large) you are mostly valued for your appearance.
First. I dislike how a small group of women feel it's ok to group the entire male gender together. How would you feel if I did that? You would flip out. You would start screaming louder than Big Red at a men's right conference.
Second, you need to understand the situation you are complaining about is way more complicated than you are making it. There needs to be reforms on all sides (not both, because there are now more than just two genders). You blaming just men is far from the equal rights that feminists claim to be for.
Third as for male privilege. your right we have privilege. We have the privilege to die protecting people.(Women don't need to register for the draft. Also women are not required to obey postings to combat duty. and firefighters need I say more.) We have the privilege to work the most disgusting and dangerous jobs. ( I've never heard of a feminists rally about getting women the right to work in sewage plants or as ditch diggers. Have never heard of a feminists rally about getting women's physical requirements brought up to the same standards as men. 90% of work place fatalities are men.) And we certainly aren't told how we should look. (Crack open any employee handbook, look at the amount of hair we can have. If we can grow facial hair. We also have limits on what we can wear). We also have emotional privileges. (like only being allowed two emotions. Not being able to discuss our emotions ever. Don't EVER cry, or show pain or weakness. Never touch anyone EVER.)
Fourth women can choose at anytime to not do the things that make them feel "sexualized". They just don't because women are in constant competition with each other. If all the women of the world decided to stop shaving and wearing makeup and the millions of other things they do to look better than the other women around them, it would take men about one day before they wouldn't care anymore.
Fifth, if you want to make generalizations about men there are more than a few that can be made about women.
And on a personal note you claim to be both male and female during your post. Pick one and stick with it.
Did not read any comments but its the same reversed too..... dont be so one sided, please... hence the term pussy whipped..... Too true
And if you didn't read any of the comments, which is where the conversation is on this post, why did you feel the need to comment, just to say you didn't read the comments? None of what you said makes sense to me.
Pussy whipped is a term made up by men who don't want to listen to what strong women like OP have to say. And it's not the same in reverse as far as appearance goes: what planet are you on that you don't know that?
Wrong. Pussy-whipped is a term made up by men to describe men who have a metaphorical leesh on them by their female partner to the point that if their partner disaproves of something the man is doing, the man will not continue to do so to appease the woman even at the expense of the man's personal enjoyment.
It wouldn't surprise me that someone like yourself would describe such a woman as a, "strong woman".
I am on the same planet as you,,, I read the initial post too fast and assumed it was a dude because I skimmed, really...... now going over it again I see I was wrong.
My bad. No harm intended.
I was also a bit drunk at the time, sooo... Ya, I'm a bafoon. I can admit that.
Isn't it funny how fast other women turn on you for just saying what you think? It's like women are trying to tell you how to act and dress. Oh wait...
MmmHmmm....I like Ellenna and her bluntness, but at the same time, I quite enjoy myself, including my mishaps:) I'm still drunk as a birdy skunk, soooooo,,, there you have it:)
<(`^`)>
It's not all men. It's not just men. And I never said it never happens to men. Never said any of that. That said, I've never had another woman interrupt my life and hold me hostage to tell me how they think I should look, especially in order for them to personally find me attractive like it's my duty to be attractive for them. I'm not saying women never do that to each other, but speaking for myself, that kind of advice usually comes from friends, it's welcome and it's constructive criticism from people who understand how clothes work, how my body is put together because I don't mind those people seeing my body, and support my decision to be covered and wear what I like.
"It's not just men" have you read your post. The main title is "Seriously guys" and though out you have tried your damnedest to demonize men as rapacious knuckle draggers the whole time. This is the first post where you admit women do the same thing. But your immedietly defend that by saying it's from friends. I'm guessing you have no male friends because in your opinion they would only be capable of raping you and drooling on themselves.
Interesting to note when it's men and they mention how you look it's assault, and when it's women it's advice. Your a hypocrite.
We're not your superiors. I can understand it being annoying but it actually pissing you off and accusing us of 'mansplaining' sounds like you believe we have some special power over you.
Also I understand your point, but the majority of media dictating how to dress, whether to wear make up, how to carry yourself, what to say, for guys wanting to fuck you is created by other women.
However not looking to engage in dialogue if you're gonna be as mean to me as to the other person.
I never, ever said men were superior in any way. The fact that you would say that demonstrates the culture we live in. I don't think men have special power over me, quite the contrary. I'm talking about how the structural and economic oppression of women fosters a culture in which men feel entitled to give women unsolicited advice about our appearances predicated on the assumption that what men think of women is more important than how women feel about themselves.
Men have created and benefit from a society that intentionally subjugates the feminine. That's what I'm saying. If you're talking about 'special' powers, I'm talking about the economic and sociopolitical power men collectively assert over women every day often without even being aware it.
For instance, women really do routinely get paid less than men for the same work. It's not uncommon for an experienced female worker who, say, manages a department in a big box store like Walmart for several years to see an 18 year old boy with no work history make a larger wage than her out of the gate. I'm not making this up. I've witnessed it first hand.
Women's beauty products and the beauty standards that were created to market them and reinforce their social importance were created by manufacturers and the advertising industry back when pretty much only men had jobs that important. Women have spent most of the last century hating their bodies and natural appearances because of their indoctrination into those ideas and products. If you're talking about social media 'how-to's' etc., that culture is a product of that indoctrination and also a side effect of how expensive it is to be a woman who is physically acceptable to men and other women in an oppressively patriarchal culture.
The term 'mansplaining' might rub men the wrong way and frankly, that's the idea. It's born of the frustration that feminists face when voicing our grievances with men to men and being interrupted, talked over, or having men equate our voicing of our oppression with us oppressing them, as if having to hear that their privilege comes with a price (i.e., our autonomy, safety and basic human dignity,) is somehow abusive to their egos, I guess? I don't know, you tell me.
Personally I think that happens because people are picking someone they're not all that thrilled about to begin with. Just my 2 cents.
But since I have the biggest shlong on this forum, it's all the opinion you'll ever need.
Yes, it's normal to be Pissed off by someone ordering you to be or do sonething.
That said, are they ordering you to or are they trying to give some advice on how to look better, as there is a difference?
I personally like giving people ideas on how I believe they'd look better, male and female because lets be honest, we all wanna look good. That said, I also like when people give me input on what would look good, which I've had plenty of by women, so it isn't necessarily a gender issue I'd say.
I'd think it's also fair to say that women also give you pointers on what looks good too, right?
That said, after reading back on your post, it honestly sounds like you're just explaining that some men tell women what men find attractive, which isn't necessarily bad, you can find plenty of women informing men on how to get a girl too b
Not really, I like it when people do so. I like the input of others on fashion and what looks good. People do it all the time, there's entire industries that do it aswell.
Imagine you're feeling good about how you look and having a good day, when someone stops you and says, "You should really wear a shorter skirt and show off those legs some more." Or, "That shirt is too baggy on you."
I think that's what she's saying, not just some advice on your hairstyle or something.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Women have the right to just live their lives in public safely without being criticized for things that are nobody's business. This shouldn't be a statement that inspires a shitstorm of "It's not ALL men!" That's pretty much what's happened.
I don't need to, I've had that experience with the baggy shirt. Same with when I thought I styled my beard well, the way my hair was, and some pretty baggy trousers. I tend to strike up conversation with people making statements like that on why they don't think what I'm wearing or styled doesn't look too good and start talking about what does look good. I've gone through a ton of styles and the ones I like, I keep, even if people think it could be better with a bit of tweaking.
I think everyone (or at least most people anyway) LIKES to feel attractive and wanted. That goes for men as much as women.
Complaints like this stem from insecurity, because when "men say shit like this" you probably feel you're not meeting the standards... and that gets to you, everyone sees it.
That said I kind of see the other side's point. If hypothetically you were talking about someone just announcing their preferences and being rude about it, when you didn't ask, yeah it's kind of asshole-ish.
The media, Hollywood, the fashion industry, cosmetic companies, etc. really like to make it look like women are obsessed with being sexy. They foster insecurity by creating unrealistic ideals of feminine beauty and sexualize women in movies and television and advertising, pretty much everywhere you see a woman in a picture or video trying to sell something. A lot of women feed into this and become insecure because they've been indoctrinated into that insecurity. Most people do like to feel attractive, but this isn't at all about that. It's about men violating women's personal boundaries and feeling entitled to do so and it's about women claiming their autonomy and standing up to misogyny. It has nothing to do with sex, whatsoever. And yes, it's extremely asshole-ish.
So your saying it's not the fault of women for buying into that sexualization. Your saying women can't just decide to stop. I think you think to little of women's ability.
Lets not blame it on media, women sexualized themselves just fine by themselves. You can't expect respect without expecting to be held responsible for your own choices.
Lets not get into the whole issue of unrealistic feminine figures because most of the time they very much are realistic, especially in media, theyre just bodies not everyone can obtain or simply don't put the work in to obtain, which is their choice but it doesn't change that the bodies used in movies are obtainable.
It also isn't exclusive to women. Just look at all the romance novels which women are the primary consumers of, they have extremely sexualized men, aswell as using a man's wealth as a "sexiness" factor.
Hmm as if women didn't judge the shoes that men have to wear. Men don't give af about shoes but have to because of this.
I don't know any women who judge men by the shoes they wear; in fact, I don't even notice unless they're stepping on me or trying to, in which case I put on my own steel capped kicking boots and see how they like my footwear
This is not about shoes. This is not about clothes. This is about men feeling entitled to violate a woman's space and sexualize her, then judge her for not meeting his standards when she's just trying to live her life. That is what I'm talking about.
They're trolling you guys because what's being said here is bat-shit crazy hysteria.
It's terrifying me, honestly. If they understood and refused to change, I could work with that, but so many of these guys genuinely think I don't know what I'm talking about. I mean, no one is perfect, certainly not me, but I'm not making any of this up. Even the examples I've used here that didn't personally happen to me happened to women I've talked to and resonated with things I've personally experienced. This really happens, guys. I'm not lying, I'm not trying to make you mad for no reason. Y'all be mad that men are doing this stuff, not crying 'It's not me!'
Yeah, those guys are jerks, but there are women who do the same things. These are just behavior's of controlling codependent people who have an over inflated sense of self importance. Male or female I'm reasonably sure that the many of the type of people you're describing are actual narcissists.
I suspect that you perhaps work in a male dominated field, and that many of the men with whom you work feel entitled to offer you their unsolicited advice and opinions. I could be wrong of course.
I don't want to slam an entire gender of course, but your frustration is understandable. I personally feel that you just want to vent and that you are in need of some validation perhaps.
Women who publicly insult male complete strangers about their appearance? Really? Where does this happen?
Read the post: it didn't happen in her workplace and the issue is about living in a male dominated WORLD, don't you get it?
My longstanding respect for your intelligence even when I don't agree with you has just evaporated into thin air.
You've never seen that happen? Really? I've never actually seen this happen to women from men but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I've had it happen to me. I've had women laugh at me because of my appearance. I just happen to have the self-esteem not to care.
And again your attacking another women for her own point of view.
It would be really nice if other women didn't defend male entitlement, that's all I really ask, but it would also be nice if more women would take the initiative to stand up and say that the way they're treated by men isn't okay. If you're okay, that's great, but suggesting that my objections to misogyny are related to my job is just othering and not helpful to the cause of women's rights at all.
You're free to interpret my comments however you so choose. Please understand that I'm no fan of misogyny, nor am I a friend of the so called patriarchy.
I have indeed stood up to guys, and told them off. However, I don't think that everything has to come down to a massive battle of the sexes. I figure some people are big assholes, and some not so much. Yes, what you have described is annoying, and even maddening, but there are far worse issues facing women and girls in the third world than whether or not some giant douchebag has nerve to try to tell me what I need to do to be sexy to other losers like himself.
Honestly, I prefer to just tell those dudes that I don't give a shit what they find attractive, and that they ought not to flatter themselves thinking that I would ever want attention from someone like them. Now there is always the inevitable chance of being called *gasp* a bitch, but I try not to get too upset, because to me a bitch is a big, vicious, snarling female wolf. For me and my own personal sanity it's a matter of perspective.
OMG, thank you Rose.
Yes, if you want to vent then look to the third world. Setting your children on fire should be something everyone should fight. Beating a thirteen year old girl to death because her was raped. That you can be mad at.
But OP before you start saying "see all men are evil" Did you know men can't be legally raped in India. If a man is raped he can't press charges. Like when a woman foreigner kidnapped held and raped a man for three days straight. She was deported as her punishment.
Still love ya Rose.
It's not about one little thing, it's one issue that's representative of a much much bigger problem. I'm also not talking about The Patriarchy™ like it's an organization, but it is a thing and it's destructive, especially to women. It enables institutions to discriminate against people who aren't men. I'm intentionally provoking men here because a lot of them have never had to question things that other people live with every day and they don't know how to be responsible for how their actions affect other people, but all it takes sometimes for someone to become aware is for a person to stand up and say, "This thing is fucked up," and present information about how it's symptomatic of a really big complicated problem for people to wake up to that bigger problem and care more about how they treat other people. It's not just a pissed off woman bitching on the internet, it's a form of activism and education because even if the guys who comment here and say incredibly stupid shit that I then use as yet another jumping off point, someone is going to come through and read some or maybe all of this page and learn something. Not to mention, I can take all of what I wrote here and incorporate into my actual professional writing on this subject. I think where any movement can get tied down is when it stops communicating directly with its oppressors and relies solely on its own academia.
What is more normal is for guys to ask you what you find attractive in men. That way, they are more likely to get into your pants.
My whole point is when I'm at the grocery in sweat pants at 8:30 pm after a long day, or on my way home to shower after the gym, I'm not thinking about getting laid and if some man I don't know feels the need to get in my face or yell at me from across the street to tell me that I should be thinking about that, but I don't feel safe calling him on it because that man could follow me and hurt me, so I have to ignore him and keep going, I'm going to be pissed off because I know that there's a good chance every other woman he does this to is going to be in the same position and he's never going to learn that it's wrong to behave that way and all the men who see him get away with it are going to think it's okay, too. That, dudes, is pretty much what it's like to be a woman in the US and I didn't even get into how scary it is when the same type of man DOES find you attractive and feels it's his duty to not only tell you about it incessantly until you can get away from him, but tell you about all the disgusting things he wants to do to you. It's not a fucking compliment.
If this was so prevailant in the US for women to experience constantly then why is it seen so rarely? It just so happens that this happens every so second of every minute to every woman yet somehow you can go a full life time and only hear it happen once or twice?
You are describing the cultural transference of misery. Living with a miserable gender eventually affects the other gender. Australia and especially America are countries with high gender misery.
Okay, I'm going to have to look this up. I've never heard this term, but Australia and the United States are both misogynistic as fuck and misogyny hurts men, too. It creates profound insecurity because you can never be masculine enough to counteract the feminine aspect that you can't erase. It's part of being a microcosm. You can't really live in a harmonious way without it.
I am a woman, and I have never been yelled at or told that I look bad by anyone. I have been complemented on how I look, but I have never had a man tell me what he wants to do with me. I think you might be hanging out in bad neighborhoods. Every guy I have ever met has been a complete gentleman towards me.
That may very well be true, but what does it have to do with OP's experience, except that to relate it in the way you have reads like an attempt to invalidate her views. Sisterhood does exist but you are not involved in it.
Another attack by woman on woman. Way to express that sisterhood by excluding her for saying her personal opinion.
That would be an appropriate response if the OP was not casually implying that this happens to the vast majority of women or an epidemic.
I was trying to say that not all men are bad. I did not intend for it to come of the way it did.
I was in a fucking corporate supermarket. I was walking down a main street. And it wasn't dark. Invalidating other women's experiences is not going to help you in the long run. Say if you got raped and I said, "Oh you must've been in a bad neighborhood." It's a lot like saying you were asking for it and I expect that from men, but it says a lot about how men think about women. Just because you haven't experienced something personally, doesn't mean there isn't a woman somewhere experiencing it right now. Next time you encounter something like this, try to locate your empathy and if you can't, please just stay out of the conversation.
So what your saying now is "your a women who doesn't agree with me. Then don't say anything." Now who wants to control what women think?
"Try to locate your empathy".
- In the same comment villifies men by saying men have bad views of women.
Others might pussy-foot around this but I'm not going to.
I do not believe that you have gone through everything you have said you have. Sorry/not sorry but I just don't. Seems like you can't go a day without some sort of bad sexist behaviour and you act like you know this happens to most women every day by most men when the sinple reality is that it doesn't, the people not ideologically driven to believing this dribble knows it's not true, and if you're so easily going to lie about the every day dynamics between men and women in such a vile manner then why should I blindly believe all these bad things that apparently happened to you when you're willing to make it seem like an epidemic when it's not?
I wasn't invalidating your experience. I'm sorry if it came off that way. I was just trying to say that not all men are bad. Many men are extremely kind and friendly. Some guys act like jerks. Ignore the jerks.
Ignoring them changes nothing, don't you realise that? Do you believe blacks should've ignored systemic racism? Hmm?
Thanks for clarifying. I know lots and lots of wonderful men. I date men, believe it or not, but the problem with ignoring the jerks and not having a wider discussion about things like this is that all the world goes on thinking these things just happen and women just have to put up with it because women aren't as important as men and that's not true.
I love boobies and tight clothes. And big asses. And longer hair. But .. I always reserve the right to call an audible . If the situation requires 😂
Men and women are valued for different things, though those things do overlap. And that's for the simple reason that men and women are attracted to different traits in each other. So the things men tend to be attracted to in women will increase the value of the woman, and same for the things that women are attracted to in men. Now the traits that are considered masculine, and so increase a male's attractiveness and value seem to be dictated by both society (and its needs) and biology (the things that ensue from the general male temper and impulses), and the contrast that result with feminine traits is what makes a (straight) woman attracted to the man, and what makes society value those masculine traits that make a man. And all of that goes for women and feminine traits as well.
Men are attracted to women who are less of a man than they are, and value those traits that make them feel masculine in contrast, and women are attracted to men that are more of a man than they are (whether in physical size, strength, roughness, social power and status and wealth and authority and dominance, and so on), and so they value those traits that make a man more masculine and powerful, which by the same token will make them feel women and girly in contrast.
That, in a nutshell, is how heterosexuality works.
Now it's not clear what you're complaining about in your post exactly. Sounds like you got some kind of unsollicited advice or suggestion from guys, about what they think you should wear. But that's more an issue of some random people being socially unsavvy and rude than anything else.
Im only 16, I live in Anchorage, Alaska, but I stand up for woman rights and I disagree with pervs and prostitutes like some men out there. Some men are disgusting swine, but some are kind and will help you no matter what. I can dress and ( with my parent's decisions ) wear makeup whenever I like, and so what if some dip stick on the street tells me I look like a whore. My point is, women are strong characters and so what if they wear crop tops and the shortest shorts they could possibly find in Nordstrom's rack. So what if the want to look sexy on their date so they put on super thick eyeliner and mascara. Woman will be Woman, and pervs and prostitutes should leave us f###ing alone.
Love y'all,
Wolfoftheclock
Also women commit sexual assault nearly as much as men and are more likely to assault children then men (according to the FBI, DDV, and WHO.), but are less likely to serve time of it.
In 2012 there where over 2000 domestic violence shelters in the U.S. for women. There was only one for men. In the vast majority of these shelters boys over the age of twelve were not allowed to stay they had to stay with the abusive partner, go into foster care, or juvenile detention centers (yup, innocent boys were sent to jail for not wanting to be beaten.)
I don't know. I agree that it's kind of weird that men are telling people how to do the things they've probably done for years. Maybe they have a fashion sense that they don't understand. But hey, who knows maybe they're just assholes who want to look better to other people. Even if it means being a jerk.
I hope it is a troll post, even if I have been trolled here. It's really fuckin' sad when ya can't actually tell if someone like this is a troll or not anymore.
Hahaha yeah originally I thought this was a guy parodying the average sjw/feminist, but maybe not. I didn't read it that closely at first. kinda thought these people had gotten phased out by now. It's Unfortunate that people choose to see the world in this way, when there's much more important things to focus on. That goes for either side of this spectrum
OP is a transgender woman, (not the same, even if you disagree,) and a legit, dyed in the wool radical feminist. But thank you. This is definitely a troll post. And I agree, it's some solid trolling. Men troll women with genuine problems on this site all the time in really disgusting, socially irresponsible ways. How often does a woman flip the script and troll the comments? I hope these guys are mad. They should be. They got punked. Hard. By a chick with a dick. #FIN
tldr, all I got is that the character you're going with here is MtF? You sound more like a FtM. Funny how either are never known as just male or just female. Always mtf or ftm. What's the point of being so conceited ? waste of resources, mind and body. Prove me wrong. All that time you spent on thinking abou yourself you were wasting time from being useful to the world. Or do you lack the ability?
My whole point is that it's my business if I care. How I choose to present myself to the world is none of your business whatsoever.
So why post about it?
You then make it everyone's business in an open forum.
People are going to do what they do. Asholes are always going to be assholes.
It is everyone's business. Women make up half the world population and routinely get treated like their safety and autonomy isn't as important as what men want. This isn't just assholes being assholes. That's dismissive and too many people are dismissive of women asserting their basic right to exist in public without being fucked with by strangers.
Did you just say men don't treat the safety of women as important? I won't explain how dismissive you are being here my big post is coming up. I'll tell you there.
But you just said it's your business and no one else's.
Speaking of being dismissive, you seem to dismiss the possibility that not all men are like your generalization and that really it could just be your perception of them. But then you'll probably tell me I'm being dismissive or condescending. Whatever. That's life. You create your own happiness.
Well, you kinda did answer your own question there. I said somewhere else, it isn't about attacking anyone personally or about hating men. I'm calling attention to a specific problem, stating that it's symptomatic of a larger, much more complex problem and addressing the comments that come in. And yes, saying it's 'not all men' is a cop out. I know it's not all men. If you read the comments, that should be pretty obvious. Saying it's not all men dismisses the responsibility of the men who aren't doing it but are supporting it by their inaction and benefiting by default of their sex from the subjugation of women. That said, you can be as condescending as you want. As much as some of these guys think I'm an idiot because I'm passionate about something they don't understand or care to because they think it isn't real or doesn't affect them, I'm smart enough and strong enough to handle it, and much more good natured than one might expect given the weight of the subject matter.
Well, you must live in New Jersey because I never see this happen. This sounds like a one time incident that you're making out to be a reoccurring thing.
That being said, turn offs for me are yoga pants and having no modesty. I think everyone has the responsibility to attempt to dress in a way that isn't too revealing or too accentuating of the body, especially if you know you are well endowed or have a big butt, etc.
I rarely see the opposite, which I think is what you're expressing, unless it's between friends who are trying to look out for each other.
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't real and isn't happening every day to women in all kinds of places. Your experience is only your experience and trying to invalidate women's experiences of misogyny is part of the problem I'm talking about. You don't know me. You don't know my life. You don't know other women's lives. Do not come to me pretending that you do.
I'm trying to be calm here, but I don't give a fuck about your turn offs. I do not give a fuck and I didn't ask to hear about your turn offs and that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about here. Unless a woman asks you specifically about your turn offs, don't fucking bring it up because your sexuality and feminine ideals are not her fucking problem.
I'm gonna say this for all you guys and then I'm probably gonna walk away and punch a wall: WOMEN ARE PEOPLE. You, as men, have the right to wear what you wear without comment from anyone and just because you might judge every woman you meet by whether or not you want to fuck her, (I'm not saying you do, but multiple men have admitted to me that they do and I'm thinking this might be a pretty widespread thing,) does not mean that the woman you're looking at or talking to is thinking about sex at all because women don't exist to be your fantasy or your fuck toy.
In your own words. Sort of. " Your experience is only your experience and trying to invalidate men's experiences of misandry is part of the problem I'm talking about. You don't know me. You don't know my life. You don't know other men's lives. Do not come to me pretending that you do."
You sound so immature. All you're doing is running in circles. You asked what we thought and, then, misinterpret and bend everything we say. All I was calling for was human decency...don't wear a bikini that covers only your nipples. And I am not singling out women, I expect the same from men. I.e. maybe wear swimming trunks vs a see through speedo.
You're free to go out whenever without the pressure of being "dolled up", but I shouldn't have to go to the store and have near nudity right in front of me as I'm buying a loaf of bread. That was my point.
Never said anything about sex or that women would have to fit my "fantasy". In fact, I don't have a "fantasy", I like when women don't try to be something for me - to just exist.
You're throwing every man into a box, apparently unable to see that some women are equally as sexual and objective as men and that not every man is the way you claim they are.
Again, I'm holding women AND men to the same standard and I'm not even talking strictly about sex...I'm saying general preference on the people I want in my life...even friends.
I go to the store, too, early in the morning on occasion having not showered and just out of bed. If people judge me, so be it. I'm pretty self aware as is. I don't know what else to tell you other than 100% agreeing with everything you say as it seems is all you want.
Oh my gosh.. The post says she doesn't like men telling women what they should wear.
Have you ever had a woman come up to you and physically corner you so they could talk to you about what you're wearing, why it's not sexy enough because you're beautiful and you should want men to want you? And then when you say that you don't want to talk to them, they move closer and try to touch you and ask you if you want go somewhere and you're looking around and people are seeing that this is happening and nobody's doing anything and you're scared because this woman is twice your size and you're alone and if you do manage to leave, this woman could follow you and grab you and take you and you know even if you dial 911, no one will get there before that happens? I didn't think so.
No, but I've lost jobs because of women who flirt with me while they have a boyfriend - tripping over chairs to get me to notice them and much worse.
People suck, I agree.
I've had a girl come up to me and closed me off from exiting to force a kiss on me while trying to fondle me and then slap me for not wanting to and then trying to kiss me again. Nobody done a thing, even after she tried to follow me.
Regardless, shitty people exist. This is what the authorities are for.
I also noticed holes in your story. You seem to make it known people are seeing this happen and then you're saying you're alone? We both know that if this happened in public that many people would intervene.
You know, I really wish your last statement was true. I'm not saying it's an all the time sort of thing, but the bystander effect is quite powerful and I have seen things too many times myself where people do not intervene.
Don't get me wrong, I do truly believe that most people are generally good, or try to be, even if we all have different ways of showing that or desires for how we want to make the world better. But when confronted with something like that, there are all too often those who don't help... either becasue they're afraid of the confrontation, because they believe - say in a crowd - that someone else will, or simply because they do not believe it's any of their business.
It's something that's honestly really bothered me in recent years.. see say a youtube video of someone being hurt, or being assaulted... and rather than intervene everyone standing around pulls out their phones and starts recording. I've been the first to be on the scene when I've seen an accident as countless people go by, I've picked up a drunk girl passed out on a busy street whom everyone ignored... and I myself found myself once trapped in an abusive relationship - in an apartment building where I know neighbors could hear what he was doing. No one ever called the police, no one ever said a damned thing.
It sounds like even in your anecdote... no one helped you. And that's terrible and I'm so glad you're okay... anyone can be a psychopath, and I am so sorry no one attempted to intervene on your behalf.
It's not necessarily something I feel makes people "bad" - though I'd have some strong words for the ones who see something going down, and instead of calling for help, decide they're going to post it on youtube - more so that it's a defense mechanism of not getting involved, or the results of say, bystander effect or just world fallacy - cognitive biases that are oftentimes unconconscious that need to be consciously overcame.
I try every day to not let myself fall prey to such biases, and to actually step in and do something because I've seen first hand how often no one else will. Hopefully by being the types of people who would step in and do something about it, others will be inspired to do the same. We're all in this crazy dance of life togther, we should do what we can to help one another.
That got a bit rambly so apologies for that - it's something I've felt rather strongly about for some time now. Shitty people do exist... I hope that together the rest of us can make it a world in which we protect each other from them.
Because you should just do what other men do and never question why women take issue with their own subjugation at the hands of men? But because you're a man, you still have a state your opinion even if you have nothing to say? Yes, I'm clearly the dumb one.
I'm sorry that I made that assumption. I just didn't expect a woman to say that and that's 100% my bad. On a practical level, I understand what you're saying. If you're surrounded by men who really don't listen to feminists, (which has been most of the men who've commented on this post,) I can understand why you might not see feminism as relevant. I promise it's not as much of a waste of energy as it seems, it's done some good things and continues to do good things, but just because this is my calling, it doesn't have to be yours.