The human condition

Free will is an illusion, because Self/I is an illusion. There is no self/I to be found anywhere.

What we are as individuals are patterns of particles with complex interactions. We are an effect that propagates and is connected to all other processes in the universe.

We are a part of the entire process of the universe. We are a component of the same process that spins galaxies in the universe and explodes stars. We are expressions of our environment.

Just because your skin doesn't enfold my neurons doesn't mean we're a separate process.

Subject/object are merely dreamed up by the mind concepts we use to communicate. The self is just a useful fiction.

Life is not something separate from matter. Life is a thing that filters signals from the world around it, processes it, and responds to it. Outputs correlate with inputs and there's no will involved.

Our Behaviors occurs in response to stimuli. The neural networks process sensory inputs and create behaviors. We are products of our environment. We are a highly complex adaptive feedback control system.

We do not know what we intend to do until the intention itself arises. To understand this is to realize that we are not the authors of our thoughts and actions in the way that people generally suppose. Our choices are determined by our history and environment. All things happen according to Causality.

We can not create effects who's causes ultimately originate from us and nowhere else. All things lack intrinsic identity. They are made entirely of non-they things and even atomic particles have no intrinsic identity that separates them from others.

Everything arises in dependence upon multiple causes and conditions; nothing exists as a singular, independent entity.

For a table to exist, we need wood, a carpenter, time, skillfulness, and many other causes. And each of these causes needs other causes to be. The wood needs the forest, the sunshine, the rain, and so on. The carpenter needs his parents, breakfast, fresh air, and so on. And each of those things, in turn, has to be brought about by other causes and conditions. If we continue to look in this way, we'll see that nothing has been left out. Everything in the cosmos has come together to bring us this table. Looking deeply at the sunshine, the leaves of the tree, and the clouds, we can see the table. The one can be seen in the all, and the all can be seen in the one. One cause is never enough to bring about an effect. A cause must, at the same time, be an effect, and every effect must also be the cause of something else. The idea of first and only cause, something that does not itself need a cause, cannot be applied.
This also applies to the principle of causality itself, since everything is dependently originated.

Ultimately there is no demarcation between what appears to be an individual creature and its environment.

All things lack intrinsic reality, intrinsic objectivity, intrinsic identity or intrinsic referentiality. Lacking such static essence or substance does not make them not exist —- it makes them thoroughly relative.

All things and events, whether ‘material’, mental or even abstract concepts like time, are devoid of objective, independent existence. Things and events can never possess any immutable essence, intrinsic reality or absolute ‘being’ that affords independence. It shows the lack of inherent existence, and the unity of experience and experiencer.

Agree 22
Disagree 14
Other(comment) 6
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Comments ( 39 )
  • anti-hero

    Well, someone has been reading.

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  • Ghost-of-the-Marlboro-Man

    Humans should smoke more.

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  • howaminotmyself

    I have a table in my back yard. No skill or carpentry was involved. It's a salvaged reel. One of those big ones that is often used to carry and store large cables. They make great tables.

    And don't get too lost on the human condition or you may forget to actually be human. Humanity is the sum of its parts, not one aspect isolated and contemplated. Don't overlook the forest because you are focused on one tree.

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    • disthing

      In this case I thinks it's actually focusing on the forest and overlooking the tree.

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      • howaminotmyself

        You may be right. I think it can work both ways. Sometimes we get too focused on this ability of ours to contemplate great concepts that we forget to just live. It is what makes us unique as humans. But we have to be careful not to let it be our detriment. Becoming depressed, feeling helpless, purposeless, unimportant, etc. simply because we got stuck inside our own head. Let go of that ego, who said we were more important? (Rhetorical question)

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  • GODofGod

    Humans should do it for lulz.

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  • disthing

    Can we not be both individuals and singular depending on the parameters by which we measure ourselves? A slice of cake is part of a whole cake - it's all just cake. But still the slice of cake is not the whole cake. I am a slice of the universe which is part of the whole universe - it's all just universe. But still I'm not the whole universe. I am myself - and self in this case is that slice.

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    • Subject and object are imagination of the brain. We feel the ownership of our body because the brain creates a body map or a self image.

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      • disthing

        Self and the differentiation between subject and object are no more imagination than all that we perceive through our senses.

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        • Yes our our brains work that way but that's not the reality. We are bound by same rules of the universe as the inanimate objects. We are not free agent as our brains imagine and believe. We are a part of a single process of universe, not free from it in any way. We can not produce unique effects that that are not caused by something else in our environment. Same "principle of causality" applies to us as to anything else.

          The illusory self that is me will die because self, will, death, fear are all part of the illusion. But what I am truly is a part of eternal. "You" and "Self" are inextricably linked to the notion of Free Will. Without the latter, the former don't exist either. Free will as illusion takes the motivating forces of fear, desire, feelings of inadequacy, guilt, and other similar feelings and replaces them with wonder, reason, and curiosity.

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          • disthing

            We are bound by these rules, as far as we're aware (we're limited to only what we perceive and are capable of understanding).

            The self you say is illusory is not illusory in my opinion. As I said previously, it depends on the parameters by which we measure ourselves. Feelings, ideas, thoughts etc. are real, even if they are subject to causality and can be attributed to neurons and electricity. In other words the 'abstract' details that make up the self are not abstract at all.

            I agree that we are part of something eternal (as far as we're aware - we can't know for certain that the universe is continuous), but as I said before with my cake analogy, a part of a whole can still be distinguished from the whole. That single process is one made up of innumerable processes.

            Death is a transition of an arrangement of matter into a different arrangement no longer identifiable to us as alive. Life is a label we attribute to certain arrangements of matter that fulfil a specific criteria.

            I don't think this is a case of true or false, it's more a case of perspective. Thanks for the discussion, by the way, I've found it interesting.

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  • dirtybirdy

    Are you familiar with the avian affliction? Me neither.

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  • yourUnconsciousBrain

    Seriousness is an accident of time. It consists in putting too high a value on time. In eternity, however, there is no time. Eternity is a mere moment, just long enough for a joke.

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  • fairyprincess

    Yep, that's what Buddha told.

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  • Nothingclever

    If you wish to tell it like it is, then you just nailed existence of all things of all complexities, it's quite intriguing. But the thing is we're not evolved to think like that, so it's grossly irrelevant in day to day life.

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    • The illusory self that is me will die because self, will, death, fear are all part of the illusion. But what I am truly is a part of eternal. "You" and "Self" are inextricably linked to the notion of Free Will. Without the latter, the former don't exist either. Free will as illusion takes the motivating forces of fear, desire, feelings of inadequacy, guilt, and other similar stuff and replaces them with wonder, reason, and curiosity.

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  • squeallikeasacofpigs

    I'm on a horse

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  • LizardSkin

    You smoked DMT again didn't you?

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    • erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=71410

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  • dom180

    If everything is completely deterministic, that means it should all be entirely predictable - if you could convert it into data had the nouse to know what all the data meant - right? With perfect accuracy, too. If everything in the universe is just a chain of physical cause and effect reactions (albeit on an unimaginably microscopic level), that should be quite easy to predict, if you had a supercomputer so massive as to be able to handle all that data. I'm not saying I disagree with you, just having a bit of discussion with myself.

    I want to be able to argue with you're main premise but I can't. Well played.

    Although I do disagree that everything in the universe caused everything else (even taking into account the problem of backwards causality). For example, something microscopic like the electrical energy in my head representing thoughts I'm having right now does not effect formation of civilizations trillions of light years away. It's something too small, trying to change something too far away.

    I also disagree that there's no demarcation to be made between an individual and their environment, or that to make a distinction between the two is useless. But I've not formed my thoughts on that yet.

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    • dom180

      data *and had

      *your

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      • Our bodies are made up of material that was once at the the center of stars. We are a part of the eternal. We are an aggregation of effects. The effect may rearrange but it will still propagate, just in a different form. Nothing is actually destroyed.

        Universe may not be deterministic as the quantum mechanics indicates. But, if it is deterministic then it should be predictable if all the variables are known.

        "Although I do disagree that everything in the universe caused everything else"

        Yes that's not the case, but rather each effect has multiple causes and multiple causes produce multiple effects all these causes and effects are interconnected forming a causal chain.

        Subject and object are imagination of the brain. We feel the ownership of our body because the brain creates a body map or a self image. Our sense of self can be extended outside our bodies. An example of this is "The Rubber Hand Illusion" in which the brain takes the ownership of a rubber hand and thinks of it as a body part.

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  • searchingnow

    You're full of shit.

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  • Fabulous

    You think too much

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  • suckonthis9

    So much for 'quality of life'.

    We are, intrinsically, composed of particles called quarks and we are part of this Universe.

    It is true that all massenergy in the Universe (and Exo-Universes) has an interactive effect on everything else, due to (primarily) gravitational force, which is a simple curvature of space.

    I think that there is more to life than this.

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  • zacbradley

    chelsea grin?

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  • Free will is absolute, because Self/I is all. There is only self/I to be found anywhere.

    I think that's what you ment to say, oh wait, you're a retard.

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    • "Free will is absolute, because Self/I is all. There is only self/I to be found anywhere."

      You didn't explain your point of view.

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      • I get into philosophy and existentialism but not to the point that it corrupts my common sense, a sense for things that need no explanation as they are obvious and undeniable. And as this "common sense" is difficult for you to grasp, I arrive at a crossroads. The great cat is at a loss with what to do with you.

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  • 1000yrVampireKing

    Even if this is so why does it matter?

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    • This this realization of unity with the universe means that we are just a part of the chain of the cause and effect. We are not some separate free agents, free from other processes of the universe, so there is no free will and there is no self/I/you.

      Therefore, we are literally eternal. Our bodies are made up of material that was once at the the center of stars or created at the big bang.

      It gives us freedom from the notions of inherent "good or evil". "Good and evil" are as arbitrary as the behavior of our immune systems and have no real/ultimate meaning.

      It may give us freedom from guilt, regrets, jealousy, desires, attachment etc.

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      • michaels4p5

        i don't believe our bodies are made up of material from that stuff.

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      • 1000yrVampireKing

        Yes that is nice but it makes no difference. It might seem like a significant discovery but it is not. It means nothing and we are nothing. Very simple and rather depressing to think about. We are still stuck here on earth till our doom. It does not free you from anything. You are just imagining it does.

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        • Nothing matter if loose the sense of self/ego/I. Nothing would depress you if you let go of the ego/I.

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          • 1000yrVampireKing

            Yeah you are wrong to think you are in charge of all our emotions. Since I already figured this out and it is really depressing.

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            • Suffering will end if you let go of craving, attachment and aversion.

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    • It doesn't matter objectively, but it matters to the individual who subjectively experiences the world(even though individuality/self are imagination of our brains). Because the individual has hardwired instincts, emotions, a sense of I/self/ego and a sense of ownership of a body.

      We spend our entire lives avoiding pain and seeking pleasure. And because we have no direct mental control over emotions, so we are forced to act to achieve this.

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  • robbieforgotpw

    Boring stuff
    *turbo splats all over**

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