The (im)morality of incest?

88 Comments

I've seen countless incest stories on this site, but they all seem like they're written by drunk extraterrestrial felons so they don't exactly lead to a real discussion. But it's an interesting question that's not often examined.

I, like most, have always been instinctually disgusted by the idea, but after thinking about it I've realized that there is nothing inherently immoral about it to me if the proper precautions are taken. Inbreeding/birth defects was always my go-to argument against incest until I noticed that the logic didn't follow, because I was still against protected incest and things like oral/anal incest. Not to mention - what's the line? How related to two people have to be for it to be immoral?

I'm thinking now that perhaps I've been irrational, because I've always said that I give zero shits about what two consenting adult humans want to do with each other sexually. But what do you think?

IMPORTANT NOTE
Since my cannibalism poll caused a stir: for the record, I have no incestuous desires, fantasies, or experiences. This is a purely hypothetical discussion.

Incest is morally wrong. 89
Incest is morally questionable. 65
Incest is morally acceptable. 88
It depends. 76
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Comments ( 88 )
  • PumpkinKate
    12 years ago | pl

    I think the main problem with incestuous relationships isn't in the sex itself. As you say, two consenting adults should be free to do whatever they like with each other's bodies. The biggest issue I see with it isn't the birth-defect bit either. It lies within the importance of the family unit within our society, and its importance to us as social animals.

    With parents and children, I feel that no matter what the age is (though at a younger child age, it's much worse) there is a huge abuse of power. Regardless of who pursues / initiates the act, a parental figure should be held accountable. Humans in modern society have an immensely long period of time where we live under the guidance and protection of our parents. During this time we learn how to feed ourselves, walk, communicate, behave, etc. etc. The role of the parent is to teach this to the child, therefore the parent has an unbelievably huge amount of power when it comes to influencing their kid. To abuse this and allow sexual relationships to develop can damage that power dynamic greatly. The balance can shift, the propensity for manipulation is huge, and in general a sexual relationship based on a gross imbalance of power can be very damaging.

    Another big problem is that almost every culture on this planet strongly shuns incestuous relationships. Whether or not that's "fair" or "just" is immaterial. We are social creatures, we need a society to live in and among. Even if nobody ever finds out about it, it won't stop the parties involved in being mentally impacted by doing something they've spent their whole lives hearing is wrong.

    I like the idea that feelings of love should be expressed between people freely, but there are a great deal of problems when it affects something as integral to life as family. Sex is fun, but ripping apart the bonds we have with our family is not easy to handle. My best estimate is that less than 0.1% of incestuous relationships would be free of such ramifications. (For example... two siblings with absolutely no other family, living on the streets together for survival end up bonding in a sexual way simply due to their situation)

    In the end, I think the overwhelming majority of situations cause much more harm - apparent and hidden, to the people having sex and those around them, and to the mental well-being of all parties involved, than good. But this is just my opinion.

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    • taciturn
      12 years ago

      Very interesting points, thank you. But I don't think I agree.

      The "degradation of societal structure" argument is applied to plenty of things under the pretense that if it was legalized, everyone would suddenly jump into it headfirst. Gay marriage is being heralded as the destroyer of the sanctity of the institution of marriage. I think that's pretty obviously ill-founded.

      Love of all kinds can be manipulated and distorted to dangerous degrees, but isn't that the concern and the responsibility of the people involved? Consent means acceptance of the risks. Your parent-child power imbalance argument is sound, and I admit it does make me uneasy to think about. I guess I just disagree with the idea that society needs to protect people from their own decisions.

      With regards to the 4th paragraph - you said (and I agree) that the sex itself is not the issue, so just for the sake of argument let's remove it from the equation. What then? Two siblings wish to marry and adopt a child - in what sense does that "rip apart the bonds" of family?

      As for the argument that the social ostracism that would follow would mentally scar the people involved (3rd paragraph), that's just nonsensical. It's the social ostracism that should be dealt with in that case. The same arguments have been made against homosexuality and interracial marriage. Whether it is "fair" and "just" is absolutely integral.

      Really appreciate your input though.

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      • PumpkinKate
        12 years ago

        I think you misunderstand what I say on several points, so I'll attempt to elaborate.

        The societal structure that is so important to us as people - make no mistake, I hold no silly delusions that if incest were OK that everyone would do it. We have genetic programming that makes ALMOST every person alive ill-disposed towards it. Gay marriage didn't destroy marriage, obviously. The point is that it is not easy to be hated, to be scorned by family, friends, and community for doing something against the accepted standards. It wasn't easy for gays, it's not easy for transgender people, it's not going to be easy for incestuous couples. Does that mean people should never do it? Not at all. I'm just pointing out facts - it's gonna' suck.

        I do not believe that a parent and a child who isn't a full adult can "consent" to a sexual relationship. That's a personal belief based in over 7 years in the study of psychology but I do not demand anyone else agree with it. I think when the child reaches legal age it's still not really there... if you grow up with someone and they prepare you and raise you for this world, I cannot see a sexual relationship with them somehow NOT damaging the dynamic. It's not about society or parents being 'over-protective' or having a responsibility to prevent something through an active decision. My point was that I believe there will be damage done regardless of any conscious thought / action / protectiveness if a parent and their kid have sex. It's just going to happen, it's unavoidable, it's how our brains are wired. At least that's what I believe. I can see them both saying "We're perfectly fine and happy" and I would call it denial, personally. I do not think that society needs to protect people from their own decisions. I think that PEOPLE need to have enough integrity to create scenarios where there is a minimal amount of hurt.

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        • PumpkinKate
          12 years ago

          To elaborate on that - if you feel like you love your daughter in a sexual, romantic way, it may cause hurt to you to not be with her. It may also cause hurt to leave your wife, shock your parents, get disowned by your family, and emotionally scar your daughter for life. Whether incest is "right" or "wrong" on a moral level is completely immaterial in this situation. That's subjective anyways and is a waste of time arguing about. It's simple mathematics - I feel the pain of unrequited love, or I feel the pain of losing my family, and inflict pain on a large number of other people.

          Two siblings wish to marry and adopt a child and never have sex? I have actually known more than one household where two siblings live together and essentially raise a child. I'll give the example of one - a busy female lawyer offered her recently divorced brother and niece a place to stay, and she functions very much like a working mom and he, of course, is the father. I don't see anything inherently "bad" about this personally. That doesn't mean their family isn't uneasy about it, though. If they wanted to get married? All hell would break loose. Again, I can hear arguments about how that's just an ignorant view of society and it should chance until people are blue in the face. I'll probably agree with a lot of what is said. It will not change the hard fact that if you choose to fight that fight, and stand up for your love - you're going to go through hell. You may very well end up never speaking to your parents or other siblings ever again. Does that mean it should never happen? No. But I do think the risks and rewards of an incestuous relationship should be weighed, discussed between the couple, understood, and fully agreed upon.

          Talk to someone who went through the experience of coming out to a more traditional family and actually letting them know they're gay and are going to be married. Then, if you can tell me that there was no emotional "scarring" I will... well... not believe you. (heh) That doesn't mean I think it shouldn't have happened, but it had to be weighed and measured by that person. It's tough, it's not easy, and it does hurt. Same with interracial couples facing societal pressure not to be together. It does leave emotional damage. It sucks that it does, but it's responsible to consider that before leaping into the bed with family.

          It is by no means nonsensical to think that social ostracism causes no damage to our emotional state. Ask anyone who has ever felt "different". And I mean *anyone*! The kids who got bullied at school, those who play D&D, someone overweight, someone with a weird birthmark, someone with a disability, someone whose family didn't fit in to the community they were a part of, anyone. When it comes to incest, at least you have to power to control whether or not you're inflicting that kind of emotional pain and it can be prevented IF it is deemed worthwhile to prevent it.

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          • taciturn
            12 years ago

            P2 - Last sentence - I absolutely agree. That's what I'm arguing for.

            P3 and P4 - Whoa wait, you misunderstood me! I am by no means saying that these situations won't cause emotional scarring, I'm saying that using that as an argument against legalizing something is flawed logic. I have several gay friends who've gone through a dreadful coming out process, and if anyone argued that that's why homosexuality is immoral or illegal they'd be absolutely insulted. I know you're not trying to argue that, but that's why I'm wondering why we're still arguing about this. Of course we can agree that an incestuous relationship could cause emotional turmoil, and that should certainly be addressed within the relationship - but how does that relate to the question at hand of whether or not it's IMMORAL?

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            • PumpkinKate
              12 years ago

              I think the question of morality could very well involve the emotional turmoil created by a certain act. I can't really say that I think it's clearly immoral because it causes emotional turmoil, but I do think it's a factor in the equation of morality.

              I like talking about it, too, I think it's a big grey area and is worthy of debate from an objective standpoint, and from a subjective standpoint I think between parents and children it is highly immoral, but between siblings / cousins it's more questionable.

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          • PumpkinKate
            12 years ago

            The last paragraph I wrote sums things up still. In most situations I see more harm coming from incestuous relationships than good. If people want to crusade for incest rights and suffer through what blacks, gays, lesbians, etc. have by all means go for it. It's not something that I would personally wave a flag for, but I would support the right to do so. I don't think it's going to happen, though. If you also think it's unlikely, I would invite you to examine "why" because I think that's important to debating the morality of incest.

            (Whew... I wrote so much, I really apologize if anyone is bothered by it, I just find it very interesting to talk about! I hope my points helped open some new venues of thought and weren't too strong)

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            • taciturn
              12 years ago

              I'm not about to start a campaign for incest rights, but I do believe my logic is totally firm. Plenty of people will be all for gay, black, female, trans empowerment and yet shudder and respond viscerally to any talk of incest. I think that universal response combined with the rarity of such relationships is why I don't see an incest pride parade happening anytime soon. Though remember that there have been and still are cultures and eras which are quite accepting of it.

              And again, I appreciate your input. I love talking about this shit.

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  • Dot123
    12 years ago

    Its good to keep it in the family, even sex wise. Incest is something the whole family can enjoy. Try having some family fun time!

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    • chewy
      12 years ago

      Idk if you're serious or not but thats funny.

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      • Lynxikat
        12 years ago

        What he said was too stupid to be serious :P

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  • thecoldhardtruth
    12 years ago

    I think it's immoral simply because family realationships are meant to caring and loving, with no deep sexual feelings attached. Families are meant to support and love each other in a caring way, not a sexual way. As soon as sex is added to a realationship it brings feelings of sexual tension which disallow a family to function as a family should.

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    • GeekiTheBrave
      12 years ago

      also a very good point

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      • thecoldhardtruth
        12 years ago

        Thanks :)

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    • MiloDunbarYossarian
      12 years ago

      Upon which standards are you making these assumptions? Sexual intimacy can support caring and loving sentimentalities between individuals; sexual intimacy can strengthen the support and love two people share. I am unconvinced by your position that when family members share/experience sexual feelings then some how these are negated.
      Lastly, I would surmise that "sexual tension" between family members is not a leading cause "disallow[ing] families to function as a family should." Unfortunately, we have a whole litany of social and interpersonal issues wreaking havoc to families.
      I'm sorry this argument isn't convincing that the morality of incest is realted to the issues you raise.

      There would be a different set of dynamics at play if the sexual activity is non-consensual but then isn't that the case of rape and/or molestation anyway.

      Human desire and attraction is what lies at the center of the issue not necessarily the morality or immorality of these. Social mores influenced by among other things religion ascribes the idea or sense of right and wrong. But those are mere social constructs which given the history of mankind have at one point or the other been used to justify murdering or imprisoning homosexuals, Jews, legalized enslaving whole generations, and using atomic bombs.

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      • thecoldhardtruth
        12 years ago

        I understand where you're coming from.
        Although your claims on incest are perfectly justified, I would have to disagree.
        Incest is just another one of those topics that are hard to argue about because there is so many different justified arguments in favor of the matter, such as the ones you have stated in the above post. Unfortunatly, the only anchored statement I have in response is that incest is just wrong, period. This may seem dissatistfactory and could definitely be opposed in a thousand different senses, again, like the ones you stated above. However any protest against this statement won't change the fact that a very vast amount of the population find incest, well, revolting. And the fact that people are instinctively against incest is not to be underestimated.

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  • chicken471bologna
    12 years ago

    I don't see anything immoral about people above the age of consent having sex.

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  • wigsplitz
    12 years ago

    I don't think of any sex act between consenting adults as immoral.

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  • seabird_71
    12 years ago

    Well this is a fun poll question.

    Parent/child incest? It seems to be the worse kind of incest, no matter the age or how consenting it is.

    Maybe I have a double standard, but I think as long as it's not parent/child incest, then there's nothing wrong with it if two consenting (non-mentally handicapped) adults agree to have sex, as long as they take precautions to not reproduce.

    Siblings, cousins, it doesn't really matter as long as they follow the other laws. No rape and no sex with a minor. But in their case, no reproduction. But it's impossible to see to it that everyone would be responsible enough to not reproduce if they were in an incestuous relationship.

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    • Lynxikat
      12 years ago

      That is a double standard :/ I don't see the point of allowing sibling/sibling incest and not parent/child incest.

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      • seabird_71
        12 years ago

        I admitted it myself that it was a double standard. I hate them but in this case, it makes sense to me. For me, the reason why I'm against a parent/child incest is that the parent raised the child, they gave birth to, or fathered him/her. It just seems to be more wrong of a situation than another type of familial relationship. But hey, as long as they are both in their right mind, not reproducing, and consent to it, I don't think either one should be locked up for it or anything.

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        • taciturn
          12 years ago

          Makes sense to me too. I don't think it's a double standard because I don't think it's the same thing. A parent-child relationship has a completely different dynamic than a sibling-sibling relationship.

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          • seabird_71
            12 years ago

            Thank you, that is exactly how I feel about it.

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        • Lynxikat
          12 years ago

          Whenever there is a case of a child formed from an incestuous relationship, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't intentional.

          I think it's stupid to allow anyone to have sex, but they're aren't allowed to have kids. That's like saying it's ok for teens to have sex, but they can't have kids- that's what sex does. Sex results in children. What if they did use protection, but the woman still got impregnated? They didn't mean for it to happen, but it still happened.

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          • seabird_71
            12 years ago

            This isn't a smart ass question, but a legit one. What are your thoughts on same-sex incest?

            Because with same sex incestuous relationships, reproduction isn't a factor.

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            • Lynxikat
              12 years ago

              They're both terrible; there just happens to be less repercussions with homosexual relationships (The issue of reproduction). But that doesn't make it less gross or unacceptable.

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          • wigsplitz
            12 years ago

            I'm actually reading a book right now about a man who definitely intentionally fathered children with his daughters and nieces-Marcus Wesson. I've heard of other situations, not this extreme or tragic, where there was definite intent to have children.

            Information about the Wesson family: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Wesson

            I also saw an episode of the Steve Wilkos show about a bioloical father and daughter who were in a 'relationship', having sex, and the daughter wanted to have children with her father. Make your own judgement as to the reality of the show, I personally think the story is true. I mean, they look practially identical, it's pretty obvious they are definitely related in my opinion. If it's not true then these 2 are real good actors. From what I understand, the show was given DNA test results, and were also furnished with a sex tape, which they did air parts of on the show. Here's links to excerpts of the show:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MJo1lyMkaU

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=a8-xtDktW-o&NR=1

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            • Lynxikat
              12 years ago

              But... Wesson was completely insane.

              I didn't see the excerpts (The very thought of it just... really grosses me out), but how could this be on reality tv and them not getting arrested since incest is illegal?

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  • CraigeryJoeBob
    12 years ago

    honestly? i see nothing wrong with incest. as long as they dont have kids (I too am concerned about birth defects) then its fine. there are way more messed up things people do sexually, so theres nothing wrong with it.

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    • Lynxikat
      12 years ago

      Sex is meant to procreate- people like it, but it exists so that people can procreate. Saying that you're ok with two people having sex but not them having kids doesn't make any sense.

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      • taciturn
        12 years ago

        The idea that sex is "meant" to be anything is bizarre to me, perhaps because I'm not a creationist. I presume you're also against homosexuality, protected sex, etc?

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        • Lynxikat
          12 years ago

          I'm not against homosexuality or protected sex... but the way I worded it, I can see how it came off that way.

          I don't see why it's wrong to think that the reason sex exists is to procreate. Am I ignorant to think that? Sex = Babies. That's what it does. If you do it for enjoyment, then that's fine- just be fucking prepared to accept the consequences and don't fucking complain about it. If you use protection, that's even better. But there's always a chance that it fails. By having sex, you are willing to take that risk of having a child, whether you want it or not, or whether you're using protection or not. If you're not in a position to raise a child (Such as if you're in high school, or you're not financially stable... or you're "in love" with your sister/brother), or then don't fucking have sex. Gays don't have to worry about conception, but they still have to worry about STDs just like everyone else- if they have sex with their partner, good for them. Just use effing protection.

          Bottom line: If you have sex, good for you. Just be prepared to face the consequences.

          So, yeah, I think it's a double standard to make incest okay as long as they don't have kids.

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          • taciturn
            12 years ago

            Ah okay. My misunderstanding then.

            But I think I have a different understanding of what a 'double standard' is:

            I agree that it would be a bad idea for young adults or financially unstable people to have children. But like you said yourself - "just be fucking prepared to accept the consequences and don't fucking complain about it". I absolutely agree with that. The responsibility lies entirely with the people involved. And yet it is legal for these people to have sex and have children, and not for an incestuous relationship. THAT is a double standard. In either event it would be inadvisable for them to have sex because it may lead to children born into very unfortunate circumstances. Yet one is illegal and the others are legal. That's the definition of a double standard.

            Your quote is in fact exactly what I'm trying to argue. If you want to make a risky sexual choice, then that is your decision, your responsibility, and absolutely none of my damn business. It's nobody's business but you and your partner. I just don't think it's society's responsibility to protect people from themselves, you know?

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            • Lynxikat
              12 years ago

              Well, I can see your argument there on double standards. But, I still stand on my opinion.

              I... don't really think that's a responsible way of thinking. If someone makes a risky, sexual decision and ends up pregnant at an inconvenient time for time (For example, the girl is in high school), it's not just unfair to her family and friends who find out about it, it's unfair to her unborn child to be born in those conditions.

              But you know what's an even bigger double standard? Incest is illegal in the US. However, there are more states that allow first cousins to marry than there are states allowing gays to marry :/

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  • bananaface
    12 years ago

    I thought I'd look it up a bit first, because I don't really understand much about it, and tbh I still don't. But I found this on Wiki and thought it was interesting:

    "Although it is illegal in most countries, Russia, China, The Netherlands, Spain, France, Turkey, Israel and the Ivory Coast have no legal prohibitions on consensual incest between adults"

    Anyway, I can't empathise with anyone who has had incestuous feelings, so I kinda feel like I shouldn't talk about it. I think the problem with me is that I don't know how it occurs, does anybody actually know what causes it? Because if it's some sort of psychological abnormality, and not a good one at that, then it's understandable why people may disagree with it.

    As for when it crosses the line, to me it's when you've been raised closely together as family. Because to go against that surely means that they have some sort of abnormality?

    I'm sorry, I'm not very useful on this topic, but in my eyes there's nothing really wrong with it if they are both consenting adults, who don't have penetrative sex. But then again, if it happened between my sister and my brother, my thinking probably wouldn't be the same, especially since we're raised to believe it's wrong.

    But I do wonder why it's different in Russia and those other countries...

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    • taciturn
      12 years ago

      Well of course they have an "abnormality" because it isn't normal, but that doesn't mean it's wrong or should be illegal. Being left-handed is abnormal too.

      I can't empathize with incestuous desires either, I just think it's an interesting thing to discuss precisely because most people are so afraid to talk about it, or just dismiss it upfront as "gross". I can't empathize with gay people or child soldiers in Uganda either but I certainly have pretty strong opinions about them.

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      • bananaface
        12 years ago

        Well with abnormality it's strange, being left handed could be considered as abnormal because it's not common, but the person can still "function adequately" so it isn't considered a problem.

        Incest on the other hand is different, it's abnormal in the sense that it isn't common, and also it's deviating from social norms and the thing that I'm stuck on is whether it's a deviation from Ideal Mental Health. I wouldn't know where to begin with answering that one.

        So the difference to me is that being left handed is completely fine, just not very common; whereas incest may actually be a problem that needs psychological treatment, like schizophrenia.

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        • TwilightPsycho
          11 years ago

          >deviating from social norms

          And this is bad why?
          Norms are merely artificial constructs of society.
          There is no single ultimate definition of what is normal and what isn't - normality is just what most people think most other people think is normal. What exactly this is varies widely across the world, as well as changes over time.

          I would argue that most people only desire to adhere to "normality" because they think that being "normal" will get them accepted by others, while deviating from "normality" would not - which sadly, is probably to a large degree true, especially in particularly religious cultures.

          Whether something is "normal" in any particular time or place does not say anything about whether it is "right" or "wrong", or the mental health of the person in question, and adhering to "normality" should not be seen as a goal in and of itself.

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          • bananaface
            11 years ago

            Yep, I agree with you. I don't know why I focused so much on the normality of incest, rather than the morality, which was the actual question. Probably because I haven't got the slightest clue.:)

            I see where the me of 11 months was coming from, though:P. I don't think behaving "abnormally" necessarily means you're behaving immorally. However, my issue is what causes incest. Is it normal behaviour? I mean that in the sense of is it healthy behaviour? Should people intervene?

            However, if they are both consenting adults, who are healthy and safe about it, then I guess I'd find it hard to call it immoral. However, this is only with certain relationships, and I think parent and child relationships are immoral and wrong.

            I really don't know what to think about the whole thing. It's pretty confusing. What do you think?:)

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            • TwilightPsycho
              11 years ago

              In my opinion, the concept of "moral" is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the consequences of the action - how it affects others. What you do privately is entirely your own business, as long as it affects noone else. If, on the other hand, you do something that negatively affects others, then that's bad - not "immoral", but just plain not a very nice thing to do.

              I believe in being nice to people, and generally not being a dick, not because of any question of inherent morality, but simply because I feel it is the right thing to do.

              So, my opinion is basically that what two consenting adults do with each other in their privacy is none of anyone else's business regardless of any relation they may or may not have.

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        • taciturn
          12 years ago

          It's certainly a deviant lifestyle, but so is homosexuality and that could be considered difficult to function with. I still don't think that's a reason for it to be immoral or illegal.

          I think you're wondering whether incest may be caused by some sort of neurological disposition - that I don't know, and I'm not sure it matters. There are some interesting points on wikipedia - sibling incest is apparently the most common form, and is prevalent in broken families wherein "one or both parents are often absent or emotionally unavailable". Not surprising. But the fact that the cause of something is negative doesn't automatically necessitate that the symptom is negative.

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          • bananaface
            12 years ago

            When I said function adequately I meant as in get out of bed, eat etc. If you can't function properly then you're classed as having abnormal behaviour, which isn't the case for homosexuals.

            My problem is I don't know where to place Incest on the abnormality "scale". Is it at the bottom with people who are left handed etc, or at the top with people who suffer severe depression etc? Because depression needs treatment, and I'm not sure if Incest does. Do you see where I'm coming from, or is this whole idea completely irrelevant:L?!

            As for the act of incest itself, I don't think it's immoral to love a family member in a romantic way. I get a problem when it creates kids, one of them doesn't give consent, or one is underage.

            But the question of whether it's healthy is still bugging me, do these people need help or is it acceptable? I'm not sure what to think, have you made any decisions on incest?

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            • lease
              12 years ago

              I've read all your posts above - and they sound good. But I personally known the "ins and outs" of incest and I really believe you're thinking too much. Brother/sister incest starts out from being physically close and one or the other wanting sex. No parent, ever, engrained "do not have sex with your sister," so it's nothing I ever questioned. Had we been found out, it would have been badl Parents do it to their kids because they're a bit torqued in the head. Ive known more than one kid who's parents fucked them. The parents get horny too - but are isolated or wired in such a way that a male in the family becomes a sex object. Similarly, if "dad" is wihout sex, he might feel the need to teach his daughter something - and try to gain her sexual interest.

              The problem comes from several things: Parents that do this often are too blunt. They freak the kid out. Their approach to it matters most.

              Incest generally stays under the radar if it's brother and sister - and parent child, UNLESS the other parent finds out. At that point, you hear about it in the news.

              I don't know how truly prevalent incest is - but with my experience, I guarantee you that it is surprisingly rampant.

              As long as each actor has the mental ability to consent to an act - and no force is ever made, I don't have a problem with it.

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            • taciturn
              12 years ago

              After some thinking this is what I've come up with. I think the question of whether something should be "treated" is twofold:

              1) Does the behavior make it difficult/impossible to function within society?
              2) Is this difficulty due to the nature of the behavior itself (and not due to the unwillingness of society to accommodate the behavior)?

              If the answer to 1 is NO (as is the case for left-handedness), then it's clearly not something that needs treatment. A left-handed person will have little trouble functioning within society, so there is no need for treatment.

              If the answer to 1 is YES and 2 is NO, then this is a societal problem. This is the case for homosexuality - living as an openly gay person may make it more difficult to interact with many people, get a job, find a lasting relationship, etc. But these are not issues inherent to the behavior itself, but an issue with how society deals with the behavior. It's society that should be treated for this, not the individual.

              If the answer for both is YES, then that means that the individual has trouble functioning within society due to the nature of the behavior itself. This is the case with something like extreme schizophrenia - with symptoms like hallucinations, delusions, disorganized thought, etc, it is incredibly difficult to function because of the schizophrenia itself. It's not something that society can really accommodate like homosexuality.

              Now we can consider incestuous tendencies within this model. Excluding things like rape, coercion, and pedophilia (things I am NOT okay with), I don't see how incest inherently conflicts with society. Any friction that would result of a consensual incestuous relationship would be a product of people's reactions to the relationship. That's something that would be ideally fixed by, say, group therapy between the entire family or just a reasoned discussion.

              Just my opinion though. Haven't really thought this through for that long.

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  • Tehboss
    12 years ago

    no problem in my book
    Why the fuck should i have the right to judge?
    Blood or no blood...
    If someone wants to sexor his twin more power to that person (extra brownie points if they are 2 hot lesbians) i have nothing to do with it unless i'm invited ;)

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  • [Old Memory]
    12 years ago

    I have been have srx with my sister
    For a few years if you both know what
    You are doing rhen why not
    We both love each othet and we ate not
    Doing northing wrong.

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    • GeekiTheBrave
      12 years ago

      the fact that you cant spell should show you that something is wrong...HOW DID YOU EVEN GET TO THIS SITE WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TO SPELL???

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      • Lynxikat
        12 years ago

        I don't get how half of the people on the site here can't spell for shit :/

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  • grldgib
    7 years ago

    Incest is ok with consenting adults as long as precautions are taken birth control

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  • Queen^of^Spades
    11 years ago

    Depends on the age (gap) and closeness in relations for me.
    A Parent-child relation or a relationship between first or second cousins is just gross, but two distantly related cousins of the same age group getting together is fine. Besides the fact that no matter how hot my cousins are, I can never see them in that way :P

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  • GoraIntoDesiGals
    11 years ago

    I'm not high on morals which I see as a religious or social construct. I do think incest is disgusting though based purely on evolutionary grounds. It doesn't matter to me if the sex is protected as we are supposed to feel attraction to those with compatible genes for potential offspring anyway (dissimilar MHC)
    I simply feel absolutely no attraction for my mum/sis/cousin sis.

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  • YngPoly
    12 years ago

    As for me I did not say I didn't think it's gross. Parent offspring and brother sister incest is gross to me. Brother brother or sister sister I don't find gross. The difference for me is psychological, there is nothing that scares me more than the thought of a defective child, my definition excludes same sex coupling though father son mother daughter is still gross to me but again that is psychological authority taking advantage. However consenting incest in which a defective child does not result is not morally wrong.

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  • YngPoly
    12 years ago

    Alright a few things. 1 I recommend to everyone the books "to sail beyond the sunset" and "time enough for love." heinlein does a good job on the topic of incest.

    First let's define incest. Incest is a legal not a moral distinction and there is no universal definition. For my purposes I will use the most universal definition possible. Incest is a sexual relationship between siblings or parent and child of the opposite sex. Same sex sibling relations are not incest.

    My only problem with incest is the greater chance for defective children. Genetics is not 50/50 so it is quite possible that two siblings may be incapable of having a defective child due to genetic variation as great as their parents. As a rule however I do not believe people have the right to play roulett with other peoples lives. Thus precautions should be taken.

    I was raped by a male cousin when I was 5, I later seduced a 14 year old neighbor when I was 7 and lost my virginity to him. A few months later my sister took advantage of me(she was 15). A few years later I would include my brother (close in age) in "play" with neighbors.

    I say this so you understand where I'm coming from. My sister took advantage of me but I don't think all such relationships are bad.

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  • randypete
    12 years ago

    i had lots of fun with my brother when we was kids it never hurt us

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  • wigsplitz
    12 years ago

    I just started reading a book titled "By Their Father's Hand" yesterday. It's a true crime book about the Wesson family. When I finish reading it, I may comment further as it has made me think more on the issue.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Wesson

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    • taciturn
      12 years ago

      Jesus. That is fucking horrific. As appalling as that is, I don't think it affects my views. Psychos are psychos. With that said... that is really horrible.

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  • ilyylm
    12 years ago

    There's always different scenarios.

    GSA (Genetic Sexual Attraction) is the first one that comes to mine, basically if a person has lived 25 years without a family member and has no previous relationship with them is it 100% wrong for them to be attracted to one another?

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  • Rhuarc
    12 years ago

    Cousins people cousins why must we assume it's direct relationship try and discuss that one.

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  • equanimity
    12 years ago

    Wow, looks like you got your discussion!

    I don't have time to read all of the comments now though, there are just so many. Sorry.

    The reason why I believe it is immoral, is due to the familial power of the older relative over the younger relative. In most families around the world, respect is largely dependent upon age and gender; the older always trumps the younger. And as long as the younger is a child, then no true consent can be given.

    Incestuous behaviour amongst young children of a similar age-group is not abnormal and usually it is just experimentation. It's discouraged, but not normally punished (to avoid future hang ups or emotional scarring) because there's not usually an abuse of power and they grow out of it.

    However, when an older relative sets their sexual sights on a child relative, they will always start off in a social position of power over the younger, simply because of the difference in age and the ingrained respect that comes with it. Even if the younger relative were the one to instigate a sexual relationship with an older relative, it is an abuse of power for the older relative to reciprocate as long as the younger relative is still a child.

    Children are not capable of making these choices for themselves because their brains are not fully developed (doesn't happen until after adolescence) and they lack the emotional and social experience to carry on in a relationship in the same way that an adult would. Some of them are very clever at faking maturity, but it still does not change the fact that their brains are just not physiologically the same as an adult relative.

    If two adult relatives actually want to have a romantic and/or sexual relationship with each other, it's not that big of a deal because there is consent. Most of us wouldn't go for it though because the incest taboo is so deeply ingrained into our culture that the idea of it disgusts most of us. Most kids don't want to hear about their older relatives sex lives because they think it's gross.

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    • taciturn
      12 years ago

      But this isn't a discussion about pedophilia or underage sex. That's like saying "homosexuality is wrong because of gay rapists." Gay rape is an awful thing but it's the rape part that's the issue. Incestuous pedophilia is awful as well, but it's because of the pedophilia aspect. The incestuous nature of the relationship doesn't make child rape any worse. An older relative coercing a child into sex is immoral for the reasons you've stated. But a complete stranger coercing a child into sex is immoral for the same reasons. Imbalance of power, neurological/emotional development, consent, etc.

      I think that's largely what contributes to evoking such a visceral reaction in people - this image that pops into your head of a creepy uncle fondling innocent children. I would never justify anything like that and I totally agree with what you've said about consent and cognitive development.

      Your last paragraph gets at what I'm really trying to talk about - excluding appalling things like rape and pedophilia, is there anything inherently immoral about incest alone.

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      • equanimity
        12 years ago

        In your effort to prove that incest is a non-harmful taboo, you are ignoring (or trying to compartmentalize the shit out of it) the central fact that this is about family members. Family.

        In families there is always a pecking order; this cannot be denied. That pecking order is about Power.

        To not include that power as part of your discussion is nonsensical because it is the most important part of incest.

        My point was, the same reasons we taboo incest with child-relatives carries over with us into adulthood, therefore the taboo is perpetuated and extends to adult family relationships.

        We are taught as children that if anyone, even uncles, touch us inappropriately that we are to tell our parents. We grow up being taught it is wrong because harm could come to us.

        When we become adults, those feelings linger.

        Family is suppose to be a sexless bond, when members betray that bond, even as adults, it feels intensely wrong.

        I can tell you that from experience, Byron. Last year, at a family party, a much older and drunk cousin of mine used a hug as an opportunity to press his raging hard-on against me. It was awkward and embarrassing, but I didn't say anything. I was furious that he would mistake our family bonds of friendship as something sexual. It makes me feel sick to think about it, even now. I've cut him out of my life now, without confrontation though.

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        • taciturn
          12 years ago

          Your point about power is a good one. I'm still not entirely sure where I stand on parent-child relationships, but what I was trying to say (and the reason I was compartmentalizing the shit out of it) was that something should not become immoral or illegal based on its association with one harmful example. Homosexuality isn't immoral because there is a potential for rape - RAPE is immoral. Incest isn't immoral because there's a potential for a power imbalance - that power imbalance is the problem. Not to mention, it's a problem that exists in many, many relationships.

          Reductio ad absurdum: twins. Presumably no pecking order. Is it now acceptable? Moral? Now what about cousins? I think if we remove power from the equation, we see that it's not the incest itself that is inherently problematic, but the power imbalance that is associated with it.

          As for the rest of your comment (everything after "my point was"), you're explaining why people are against incest, not why they should or should not be. I already know why we are so adamantly against it. I want to know if that's the most rational position. Trying to argue what family is "supposed to be" is like arguing that marriage is "supposed to be" between a man and a woman. It's not enough to state a moral position as fact.

          As for your last paragraph - I'm truly sorry that happened. But to me, sexual harassment is awful in itself. I don't want anyone in the world to molest or rape anyone else in the world, whether it's incestuous or not.

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          • equanimity
            12 years ago

            Oh, but there is an age-related pecking order amongst twins, even though it's only a difference of moments, it is there.

            Incest is a taboo about power and reproduction. Homosexuality is not a taboo on any level; it is only about love. I see no correlation between the two, not even when you try to make one.

            If there were no taboo against incest, then ignorant people of all kinds would start fucking their family members (because that's what happens today in countries where there are still no laws against incest). And in those types of situations, more creepers are going to use it as a justification to indulge those fantasies.

            Without modern laws against incest, there was the social repercussions to deal with, but as our society loses it's bonds of community and social pressures, those laws are the predominate source for keeping the pedos and rapists at bay.

            That's why it is necessary to carry on with this taboo. Prohibition of incest deters some would-be deviants from acting out their fantasies, but not all. It's not a perfect system, but it sure beats letting them do what ever they feel like doing.

            I know you didn't mean to, but that young man in the other post (about his sexual attraction to his child-cousin), took your need to ferret out the true nature of incest as approval. All he needed was one intelligent person to make him feel justified; you might have instigated a future rape, you know.

            Honestly, I think people should get their freak on as long as no one is being hurt or taken advantage of or is under the age of 18 years old.

            And by the way, when you open something up for discussion, don't get pissy about how it is being discussed (you do that too much). I brought up all of that stuff about the background of incest not because it is the main point of my argument, but because I don't think you can have a relevant discussion about incest without it.

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            • taciturn
              12 years ago

              When did I get pissy? I apologize if I came off that way, but keep in mind that tone is hard to read on the internet. I'm not angry or anything. Although I do take offense to the idea that I "instigated a future rape". That guy said absolutely nothing about forcing himself on her, and accusing me of potentially causing a rape is insulting and unfounded. I told him outright that while fantasies are normal, nonconsensual underage sex is appallingly wrong, and he agreed - if he's lying about that, then there's no amount of chastising from an anonymous stranger that would change him. Let's keep the discussion to the topic at hand, and please don't insinuate that I enabled rape.

              Second to last paragraph - I feel exactly the same way. Like I said, I don't give a shit about what consenting adults choose to do sexually, and I think people should be able to do whatever they like so long as it doesn't infringe on others' ability to do the same. So if there is any relationship (incestuous or not) that involves coercion, harmful manipulation, or child sex, I am against that and would want it to stop. So what are we disagreeing about? :p

              It may well be that coercion is more common in incestuous relationships. If that's true, then the coercive incest should be stopped and the consensual relationships should be allowed. Just like any relationship.

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  • GeekiTheBrave
    12 years ago

    SETTLEMENT- This is an opinion Based conversation/ Argument no side will win. some people (like the damned religious freaks) will say its wrong. but they also say that having sex under the age of consent is wrong. The other side says its ok but have reasons not to like it. The age of consent is just a boundary to keep children or teenagers from having kids. It is wrong to say that two people cannot love eachother just because the law says they cant have sex. NOW! children under the age of 14 shouldnt have sex or even think about it because they dont know what love is. But those parents that have sex with there children are terrible because they are taking advantage of someone. ..SO what make incest wrong is the fact that people will take advantage of the love there relative is giving them, and using them to have sex. But if its because two people love eachother mutually ,then i think its ok. and i also see what both lease and thecoldhardtruth are saying. There isnt going to be a winning side ever. Because of too many opinions and zero facts involved.

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  • theabider
    12 years ago

    I voted "it depends" because I think we have trouble defining the word "incest". Yes, a mother and son having sex is perverted and disgusting. However, most of the posts on this site seem to be about cousins, and I refuse to call cousins "incest." I think there is nothing morally wrong with making love to or marrying your first, second, or third cousin. :)

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  • calthropstu
    12 years ago

    The immorality of incest and where it starts has been debated for millenia. I have a daughter with my first cousin and when she said she was pregnant I did extensive research into the matter.

    Facts:
    The bible specifically states what is classified as incest:
    Your mother, your sister, your aunts, your daughter, your grandmothers.
    On 2 seperate occasions in the bible is 1st cousin marriages COMMANDED within the line of david.
    Many people had cousin marriages throughout the years especially royal families. Also depending on size of communities it would be impossible to NOT marry a cousin without ranging far afield.
    Scientists have determined the increase of probability of birth defects for each category of incest. 2nd cousins and beyond have no increase. The base is a 2-4% chance (covering every possible defect in existence). 1st cousins this increases to a 4-6% chance. A problem DOES occur however if this trend continues over multiple generations so if my daughter were to marry her cousin that 4-6% would increase. A pairing with a neice/uncle or nephew/aunt increases to 6-8% which starts becoming slightly more dangerous. A parent/child coupling grows to about 10-12% which becomes seriously problematic and a brother/sister depending on genetic closeness can go as high as 25% likelihood.
    Going based off scientific logic, 1st cousins seems to be where the logical battle line should be drawn. Anything closer and you're playing genetic roulette. Going off of Victorian ethics, since queen Victoria herself married her first cousin that is ok and the bible specifically states the line is anything closer than 1st cousin.
    Now debating whether PROTECTED incest is ok:
    This is an interesting concept. No chance of pregnancy and it is likely a better - and safer- prospect for especially teens who are trying to experiment with sex at a time when their bodies are demanding it and society is telling them it's wrong. However sex is a funny thing, and if say a brother or sister become more than just experimental partners and into the realm of lovers there is a danger. If there were a way for them to experiment sexually with eachother without the chance of becoming emotionally+sexually attached with eachother then it sounds like a very good prospect. It's worth further exploration I suppose, but good luck getting anyone to agree to investigate it. The ages where it would be beneficial would label the culprits as pedophiles and land them in prison.

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    • wigsplitz
      12 years ago

      But didn't Adam and Eve and their children, and those children have to practise incest?

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    • GeekiTheBrave
      12 years ago

      STOP using the bible to choose personal morality

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  • Lynxikat
    12 years ago

    I'm just gonna say that incest is fucking wrong and gross.

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    • chewy
      12 years ago

      Thats what others have said along with its bad join the club.

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      • Lynxikat
        12 years ago

        Yeah, but I'm surprised at how many people are actually OKAY with it.

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        • taciturn
          12 years ago

          I think most people in the world would agree with you (which is why it's illegal in most places). I can respect and understand that opinion, but why is it "wrong and gross" to you? I'm looking for rational responses as opposed to emotional responses.

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          • Lynxikat
            12 years ago

            People draw the line on what they do and do not accept. For me, incest draws that line.

            As for the rational reasons why I believe incest is immoral, I think equanimity said everything that needed to be said perfectly. When someone gets charged with incest, rape is not far behind.

            Even if it was two consenting adults, it would still be wrong. It's like equanimity said; family is a special, sexless bond. It should never, under any circumstances ever go beyond that. Even if the two siblings, or parents and children are consenting adults, familial bonds should never be tainted by sex.

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            • taciturn
              12 years ago

              By the way, sorry if I come across as aggressive/angry. I'm not. :p

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            • taciturn
              12 years ago

              Incestuous rape is bad. Gay rape is bad. Straight rape is bad. Male rape is bad. Female rape is bad. Rape is awful no matter the circumstances. Even if it was more common in incestuous relationships (which despite being the stereotype, I've seen no research to support that), I'm saying we should condemn incestuous (or any) rape, and permit incestuous (or any) consensual relationships.

              As for your last paragraph - if that's your opinion, that's totally fine. I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything, and I know that I'm definitely playing devil's advocate here. But saying 'because family shouldn't work like that' is just that - an opinion, and I'm just trying to see if there's a rational basis for that. To me, that's the exact same argument as when people say that marriage is a bond between a man and woman that should "never, under any circumstances ever go beyond that". Why not? You're totally free to keep your family away from incest; I plan on doing the same. But that doesn't give you the right to tell any other consenting adults what they should or shouldn't do.

              To me, if consenting adults want to be with each other, who are we to tell them it's "fucking wrong and gross"? If that's what makes them happy... well, I don't really understand it myself, but hell, lucky for them! :)

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  • fat-daddy50
    12 years ago

    to me as a young boy I had wet-dreams about having sex with my cousins and even with my aunts. But I never even thought of banging my sister.

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