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It's mandatory in NYC. There are conservative anti vax people throwing tantrums over it and liberal BLM people throwing tantrums over it. I don't think I've ever seen adults scream and cry tears so much in such a short period of time. I've stopped picking sides when it comes to pro vax and anti vax since everyone just acts like big babies no matter what side they're on, so why side with babies?
I am partly vaccinated myself (getting my second one soon) but for something like this I don't think any of the mandates have been necessary. The moratlity rate on it was pathetic. If it was something like the bubonic plague then I can see the pro-vaxers having a srong point, but this pathetic thing? It's terrible how our freedoms have been curtailed to stop it.
I'm all for people who decide to get the vaccine. However, I'm not going to. I'm Pro-Choice on it, like abortion. My body, my choice. Like the flu shot, for example. The only time I got a flu shot, was when I had to so I could see a dying family member.
I think people should be encouraged to get the vaccine, however they shouldn't be forced to.
It's really all very simple - and the case law on this is very old as well.
There are no absolute freedoms and rights. Everything is limited. In addition those freedoms and rights come with balancing responsibilities.
As an example you cannot just yell "Fire" in a crowded business or theater unless there is a real fire. People get hurt and even killed during mass evacuations.
Vaccine Mandates went through the court system decades ago. That is why all the new lawsuits (making the exact same failed arguments of the past) have all been quickly shot down.
The US Supreme Court has already ruled decades ago that vaccines can be mandated for public health reasons.
Also, OSHA has for decades mandated certain vaccines for certain professions - and no religious organization has objected (Health Care workers is an example). OSHA most certainly has the legal standing to expand the list of vaccines and expand the list of professions needing protection from a certain vaccine.
While I agree that in certain cases a person has an individual right not to get vaccinated against a pandemic disease - that is generally only true if they agree to live in isolation and accept the responsibility of not potentially transmitting a pandemic disease to other people if they get infected (and you take personal financial responsibility for the sick if you do transmit such a diseases).
There is a "right" - there is an balancing "responsibility" to exercise that right. So go live isolated in the mountains or someplace similar - and stay out of the towns or around people.
The concept that you have "all rights" and no responsibilities has never legally existed in the USA - and is in my opinion the argument of the ignorant and intolerant.
In my opinion the sad thing is that 20 or more years ago that no self respecting Republican would have raised any arguments against Vaccines in a pandemic. They'd all be telling you to get them -and they would all shoot down all the current arguments as being false (almost all politicians are lawyers - and they know the case law on this better than most).
I personally find it repugnant that current National and State Republican Leaders (who can quickly look up the legal laws and legal rulings if they don't know them already) have not shot down all the fake arguments about personal rights and conspiracies theories up front. They are not serving the public good.
I'm not saying the goverment CANT do the mandates I'm just saying it has to go through ALL the channels to make it into law.
The vaccine mandate is an edict by joe biden that grossly goes beyond his actual power. He has the power to mandate vaccines... for the executive branch. Beyond that he has to go through the proper channels for passing legislation.
If a mandatory vaccine mandate is in order. I think it would be far more palatable if the particular vaccine was used for years before like every other vaccine mandate.
When you get a small pox vaccine you arent at risk of still spreading small pox. Unlike the covid vaccine. Making a mandate on something that already is known to not work 100% raises eyebrows.
Its covid, it's a virus. We will always have the virus in some form spreading around. Influenza is still around dispite the hundreds of varieties of vaccinations. Not saying covid is just another flu but structurally it is, thus is just as susceptible to mutation as the regular flu.
Making edicts with unlimited power is not how the united states is supposed to function. If covid killed 1/15 people making an edict that severe would be more warranted than it is now.
Best case scenario for covid is that it becomes a harmless virus that just infects the host with minimal problems. There are hundreds of viruses that act like that, they are the most successful because of it.
But not even being "fully vaccinated" is enough. Boosters will role out soon and after that do you have to constantly get new boosters every time theres a new strain? Wheres the line? At what point do you say NO to the goverment Olderdude?
More detail on my post of 3 hours ago:
My wife was asking some questions about this as well (as the hospital letter she received today was poorly worded - although she is already vaccinated).
Executive Order 14042: Ensuring Adequate COVID Safety Protocols for Federal Contractors (Sept 9, 2021) applies to the Executive Department and agencies, including independent establishments subject to the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act - Part 40 USC Section 102(4)(A)... to the extent permitted by law.
That's all within the Presidents Executive Branch, and affects almost all US Government Purchases within the United States.
It applies to all new contracts, new execution of options, and new extensions and renewals.
If a company is operating under an existing contract and they don't revise the contract or accept new existing option orders they do not have to comply with this.
This Executive Order directs the Safer Federal Workforce Task Force to develop and provide the definitions, explanations, guidelines, and protocols for Covid-19 protection for the workforce of Federal Contractors affected by this order.
Nowhere in the Executive order does it direct that these contractors must be vaccinated or wear masks. That is left to the Safer Federal Workforce Task Force (who had to determine that by September 24).
On September 24 this Task Force decided virtually all Federal Contractors (and subcontractors) on new issued or revised contracts would have to be vaccinated by Dec 8, 2021, with medical and religious exemptions. Certain other exceptions for Contractors in certain work situations or with newly hired employees can be granted.
High Quality Masks (not just simple cloth) must be worn by people not fully vaccinated and visitors. Included are the DC guideline exceptions for masks regarding a variety of issues.
So President Biden did not directly require the workers of Federal Contractors to get vaccinated. He had a multi person - multi department task force determine what the requirements were; and much of it was based on CDC recommendations.
Executive Order 14043: Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees.
President Biden did set the policy that all Federal Employees will be vaccinated, with exceptions for medical and religious beliefs. Note that ALL employers have the legal right to set vaccination requirement for their employees, allowing for medical and religious exemptions (existed long before Covid-19)
This was based on CDC recommendations as the best way to minimize Covid-19 effects.
The Safer Federal Workforce Task Force was to develop guidelines by Sept 16 to implement this policy.
This Task Force issued the guidelines on Sept 13, and set Nov 22, 2021 as the required date to be fully vaccinated for existing Federal Employees that do not have an exemption.
Both Executive orders identify the exact legal basis that gives the President to take such actions.
In addition to those 2 Executive Orders; President Biden requested OSHA to develop both an emergency rule and a permanent rule regarding Covid-19 Vaccinations regarding requiring vaccines for all US companies with more than 100 employees..
The OSHA Emergency rule can be done fairly quickly, and will likely be more limited than what President Biden requested to ensure it will likely withstand certain kinds of legal challenge. I would not expect to see it until perhaps the end of the year or early next year.
The OSHA permanent rule is likely to take at least another 6 months - and perhaps a year longer than that. The formal regulatory process is slow by design. Example - there is a minimum 90 day comment period after the Draft regulation is published. Then there is a period where comments must be addressed or incorporated. Almost all Draft Regulations get changed due to comments.
The exception to the permanent rule timeline is that OSHA already requires health care workers to get a series of vaccinations. The normal annual review process would certainly add Covid-19 to the required Vaccines for Health Care workers in the 2022 updates... independent of anything that President Biden did.
So there is a much more detailed explanation.
Key behind it is that both the CDC and the Safer Federal Workforce Task Force believe that vaccines are the best method to reduce the carnage caused by Covid-19. President Biden did not just invent these requirement on his own.
President Biden has not directly mandated the vaccine for anyone outside of his direct control.
He has asked other departments to do so (within their legal authority).
He has asked OSHA to start the regulatory process to apply it to many, but not all, businesses. OSHA will go through the normal rule-making process - and what comes out of that is likely to be a bit different than the initial request as things are often modified slightly by the rule-making process.
The organizations mandating vaccines are Employers and Schools. Employers have legal authority to mandate vaccines for their staff. In many States the School Boards, School Districts, Universities, etc. have legal authority to mandate vaccines. Both cases represent "local control."
So there is no mandate from a single person on this.
The Covid-19 Vaccine itself does not create a condition that spreads any disease.
No vaccine is 100% effective.
All viruses and bacteria are subject to mutation. Yet, no one is raising the same arguments about the other vaccines (and that is the reason the flu vaccine changes every year).
I just shot down every argument you made - easily.
I though you were better than that in thinking things through and presenting arguments.
Why not up your game next time and check out the facts and research things before your next attempt. I'm sure you can do that.
I am for vaccines and I'm fully vaccinated myself. But I don't think it should be directly forced on people, its about deciding over your own body.
Although the antivaxers really should stop spreading misinformation about vaccines and learn a minimum understanding of statistic/probability.
I would like to add that there is a lot of misinformation being spread by both vaxxers and antivaxxers. The vaxxers are straight up lying and saying those who are vaccinated Cant spread nothing and thats a lie. While many antivaxx people are saying that the vaccines are meant to cuase everyone to develop corona. Which while I think many goverments including US are diabolical I don't think that's the intention. Otherwise not just infect everyone directly.
Makes me believe you do not work and pay a mortgage if its not a big deal to you, or you have not been personally effected by it. Its a big deal when you have kids to feed and a house to pay for and the government is forcing you to not work.
I was hopeful about the vaccines last year, assuming they'd be like normal vaccines, where anyone who wanted to could get it, and wouldn't care whether anyone else got it because they'd be immune. With this not being the case, the vaccine is causing way more harm than good.
to force someone to get a vaccine is taking away their freedom and rights, and that is a direct violation of the constitution of United States. everyone should be able to decide for themselves as they all know the pro and con of it. and all my life the government has not been concerned about my health and now they are, have to wonder what is up with that.
No its not. There are no absolute rights or freedoms. They all come with responsibility and balance, and Public Health is more important than individual rights.
To specifically address your point:
A) In 1905, the Supreme Court, by a 7-2 majority, ruled that the State (or City in this case) could require vaccinations for the public good even if they infringed upon other individual rights (Jacobson v. Massachusetts).
B) In 1922, the Supreme Court, by 9-0 (unanimous) ruled that the State could mandate vaccination, and exclude people from attending events or places (schools in this specific case) if they had not been vaccinated (Zucht v. King).
I note that every recent case filed in court challenging the vaccination requirements imposed by government or businesses has been very quickly shot down in court by citing either or both of these rulings.
There are other Laws and court rulings that allow an employer to require vaccinations for their employees; with an allowance for medical or religious reasons for most employees (there are a few rare situations where those exemptions do not exist).
so tired of hearing about the rights bullshit one needs to to think about the greater good rights don't do you any good when your dead
I think that not getting the vaccine just because getting vaccinated is in your "personal space" is ridiculous. You could have covid and be spreading it around,causing people to die,but God forbid,someone "intruding" on you is more important than people's lives being saved. Life is more important than that.
Unfortunately it is a political decision now. Anti mandate is 100% a conservative argument. Conservatives arent anti vax (some are but you cant defeat stupidity with edicts) trump got the vaccine, every major republican got the vaccine. It's not about the vaccine it's about the goverment forcing people to do medical procedures.
I just don’t agree with being forced to do something I may not want to do. When did a vaccine dictate what I could or couldn’t do personally and professionally? If I don’t want it and want to chance my health, cool. If I want it and believe what all they’re saying, cool. But don’t tell me I HAVE to do something. You can shove that where the sun don’t shine because fuck you.
I think the vaccine is extremely needed but would still want people to have a choice in whether they want to take it
I just got the Johnson and johnson. No other reason besides it's only one dose.
Dont care that it doesnt use Mrna. I trust vaccines in general.
But these mandates will set a precedent for future booster mandates.
Belive it or not I dotn think the goverment has any right to mandate if you got this years flu shot. The same can be said about the covid vaccine.
Covid sucks, I had it in the beginning but since I was 22 during that time it was like an achy cold more than anything.
I am pro vaccine. I am 100% sure that if the goverment didnt mandate the vaccine so hard more people would be vaccinated. I dont trust the goverment when it forces shit on people especially to stop something that's already proven to not be deadly to young people.
I think a lot depends on how they treat people who medically cannot be vaccinated.