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How old should a child be before they can request the surgery without parents consent? No long answers please, I won't read them.
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At this point I'm landing on 21, including top surgery. I also think it's about time we start looking for ways in which we can medically alleviate the feelings of gender dysmorphia instead of simply affirming gender dysmorphia. Before anyone screams "That's conversion therapy!" I'd simply tell you that transitioning itself is conversion therapy and if you take more of an issue with there being a means to remedy their dysmorphia if possible than you do affirming the dysmorphia then you care more about "Transgenderism" than you do the individuals the topic encompasses.
I feel like we need to revisit the medication fairy.
We treat schizophrenia with meds. What's the moral argument for when the brain rejects the biological body?
Gender dysmorphia is simply just another mental disorder.
This is why I say 21. If the proper experts aren't willing to even explore a medical remedy that doesn't include permanently altering your body through mutilation then we can at least hope that by 21 all the contributing influences may be dampened by the introduction of the influences brought about by living life as an adult to lessen the amount of those that would have been went through the process if that decision could be made at a sensitive time in identity building. I think by the age of 18 you're still heavily influenced by the lack of experience in life as an adult to make such a drastic and permanent alteration to your body that you will have to live with for the rest of your life and all the negative impacts included.
If you can die in a war at 18 you can make other life altering decisions. Same with drinking age and firearm ownership.
18 is when you are an adult. Some parents actually prepare you to become an adult at 18. Mine did, that's why the kicked me out and I joined the navy for a bit. To figure shit out without debt.
I'd disagree but I understand the sentiment. At 18 you can be trained in the military and later leave, at 18 you can drink but then return to being sober, and at 18 you can purchase a gun and put that gun down, but with transitioning you cannot surgically alter your body and then return to a the state of being prior to the decision.
While I agree some can become more mature adults at 18 I think there's too much potential for that not to be the case to allow permanent damage to the body and that would be the difference between this type of decision and the other decisions an 18 year old can make.
I never knew you were in the navy, though! New LloydAsher lore. :P
Agree to disagree but I think the goverment has to be at least consistent on what an adult is and what an adult means for individual rights. You got to be 16 to get a tattoo (I think) and that's as permanent as transgender surgery (albeit a scar vs infertility/mutilation is s cliff of difference) but in practicality it's the same.
If you are an adult I solemnly believe that you as an adult are allowed to make life changing decisions including making yourself sterile. Granted making yourself sterile is shortsighted but I still believe you should be able to do it (and not sue when you regret it)
Either you are a child at 18 or you are an adult. The only in between is drinking and smoking age and I disagree with that limitation no matter the health concerns. As your personal health is solely your responsibility (if you want to get into a abortion debate and how that intersects with my version of libertarianism we can debate that)
If you want to make bad health decisions and die at 35 that's on you. To me freedom to the point of early death is completely alright.
Totally agree, 21 that seems to be the age universally accepted around the world for adult decisions.
I think it should be 18, and they should be required to go through a good year of psychology meetings first (although they could start that when they're 17). I don't think they should be disallowed from having it if the psychologist doesn't think they're really trans, since it is their body and their choice, but they should be heavily discouraged in that case.
Children definitely shouldn't be able to request a surgery that lasts a lifetime, they barely lived their lifespan, in the of chance that they did not want it, it's a lifetime of torture and suffering.
IIRC there's an interview that said that it's uncomfortable and the hormones are fucked up, the interviewee went bald very young etc.
And what happened to the general consensus that children are dumb?, they are young and barely experienced life, they don't even have the ability to think conceptually perfectly yet.
I remember how naïve my thinking was when I was young, Every thought I had back then is stupid and wrong conceptually. Yet, back then I see it as the truth.
And now children are being fed information about gender and shit, just let them be children, they'll eventually learn what they want in life.
18 y/o would also be too young, what do you expect someone who just became an adult to know?, the average 18 y/o probably still don't have much life experience.
It should never be done. It's medical malpractice, purely cosmetic, and there are many safer, cheaper alternatives, like therapy and mood stabling drugs, although even those should be carefully controlled. That's how we treat all the other delusional people, I don't know why gender confusion is an exception.
therapy does not cure gender dysphoria nor is there any medicine that cures it
You sure? What differentiates this from any other mental health problem, where you want to change/mutilate your body? And with a 40-50% suicide rate in transgenders, I think any other option is a better option than the ones being provided today.
it's not just mental, it's neurological and effects the brain. people with gender dysphoria have a brain structure comparable to the gender they identify as. it's estimated 2% of the brains variance in brain structure is gender/sex related, it may seem a small number but considering there's around a 1% of DNA difference between humans and bonobo's it is significant. the brain is extremely complex and the statistical distributions of brain structure overlap so massively between men and women in all metrics that i don't think we'll ever 100% fully map the entire brain and understand every area of it, it's why we don't have an instant cure for gender dysphoria, autism, adhd, etc.
the high suicidal rate is not because of identifying as a different gender you were born as, it's because of the violence and discrimination transgender people face. banning transgender people from getting surgery or taking hormone therapy is not going to solve the suicidal rate, if anything it would make it higher and increase mental health issues in the transgender population like depression or anxiety.
"The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons."
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
"Respondents who experienced discrimination or were a victim of violence were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts."
"Experiences of violence, including intimate partner violence (IPV) are associated with higher prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts. Over 30 percent of those who were physically attacked in a place of public accommodation reported attempting suicide in the past year, which is over four times the prevalence among respondents who were not similarly attacked."
"Access to gender-affirming medical care is associated with a lower prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts."
- https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/
it would be like brown haired people being heavily discriminated against and assaulted simply because they have brown hair. the people born with brown hair can't help who they are, they were born like that, and instead of supporting them and trying to encourage people to respect and accept them for who they are and trying to solve the actual root issue of hate and violence against them you instead ban people from having brown hair and heavily discourage people having brown hair which will only further the violence and encourage people to assault and discriminate against them more, causing people with brown hair to obviously develop suicidal tendencies since they are hated and discriminated against in society.
If the absurdly high suicide rate is due to aggression and violence, even though we're in the most "affirming" society in history, and transgenders have always existed, as you implied, saying that it's a "legitimate" neurological condition, then why have we not seen mass suicides of transgenders throughout history, all over the world? This isn't natural, it's not normal, it's not a neurological condition, it's society-wide gender confusion.
"even though we're in the most "affirming" society in history"
comparing from the old days it is a bit more better today for transgender people, however even these days transgender people are still four times more likely than cisgender people to be victims of a violent crime. there are still people today that are trying to take transgender peoples rights away, just look at the situation in america. in texas they're trying to legalize the kidnapping of children from parents who are either transgender themselves or a parent that supports their transgender child, in south carolina and oklahoma they're trying to make it a felony to provide hormonal or surgical treatment to transgender ADULTS, i would understand if it was just children but they're trying to ban it for people who are under 26 which is ridiculous.
"then why have we not seen mass suicides of transgenders throughout history, all over the world?"
because we don't have the statistics or research back then, even if we did in the old days most transgender people never publicly outed themselves and tried to remain as hidden as possible because of how much more violent and discriminatory people were to transgender people back in the past. transgender medical care today is still being researched and is still very outdated and a lot of things unknown, do you really think in the past they'd care to research about transgender people or gather statistics revolving around transgender people? in the past transgender people were hated even more and just regarded as freaks
"This isn't natural, it's not normal, it's not a neurological condition, it's society-wide gender confusion."
clownfish are capable of changing their entire sex, all clownfish are born males and one must morph into a female to breed. chickens are capable of changing their gender, when there is no rooster present in the flock occasionally a hen will begin producing more testosterone in the body where she will begin to grow spurs and saddle feathers like a rooster and take on rooster behaviors like crowing and mounting other hens, although she will not be able to mate with the hens, however physically and socially she has transitioned as a rooster in the flock. there's been female lions that have grown manes and begun to take on male behavior such as marking territory and mounting other lionesses.
if it's not natural why is it seen in nature?
26. The age that the frontal lobe develops more most men. And also puberty is well over.
They should be 10 years old at least, to do it, I heard of teenage boys getting a sex change.
99...
Seriously, I reckon the only reason it is treated differently to disorders such as Eating Disorders or other forms of body dysmorphia is because of political and special interest groups and their ties to big pharma. Identity politics is en vogue these days so it sells... They've figured out a killing (41%) business strategy.
I say 18. Childhood is a very confusing time in a person's life and making a major life altering decision like that should be left to an adult.